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Bump :-)
I love posts like these, Why do most if not all consumers believe people in the auto industry should be working (for them) for free? That somehow if a profit is made by any person during the course of the transaction that it is indicative of borderline ethics.
The dealer is in business to make a profit.. and all employees who work there are there to make a living, despite the consumer's attempts to the contrary.
Here's a couple of thoughts:
If I came to your place of business and demanded you provide me with your services and prove you and your company are not somehow profiting in the process, how would you treat me? If your employer decided you should only be paid based on exactly how much was necessary to cover your expenses and made you prove that, how would you view them?
@fury1995 wrote:I love posts like these, Why do most if not all consumers believe people in the auto industry should be working (for them) for free? That somehow if a profit is made by any person during the course of the transaction that it is indicative of borderline ethics.
The dealer is in business to make a profit.. and all employees who work there are there to make a living, despite the consumer's attempts to the contrary.
Here's a couple of thoughts:
If I came to your place of business and demanded you provide me with your services and prove you and your company are not somehow profiting in the process, how would you treat me? If your employer decided you should only be paid based on exactly how much was necessary to cover your expenses and made you prove that, how would you view them?
With all due respect..... and I believe you are making a very valid point about many peoples approach to getting "a deal" when buying a car, however, this particular thread was about determining which bureau and specifically which version of an auto enhanced score any captive finance arm was using.
This does not undermine the dealers need to be a profitable business, which is after all the only way they could remain a functioning dealer. I wish more people could recognize this angle, rather than expecting the dealer to be a non-profit public service.
So again, this thread was about the non-transparency regarding which bureau and which particular version of a score was used in any given situation.
As best I can tell, no one (in this thread, at least) has yet stepped up to say if anyone is using FICO AUTO V.8, and IF they are WHO they are.
F&I managers???? Anyone?????
Most auto dealers still have Auto Enhanced Beacon 5.0, Experian FICO II or Trans Union Classic AU 04 however the lender will pull whatever their primary bureau is as described in their dealer agreements and rate sheets. For example:
Wells Fargo uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Fico 8.0
Bank of America uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Industry Adjusted Beacon 9.0
PNC Bank uses Experian FICO 08 Auto Enhanced
BB&T Bank uses FICO Auto Score V8
US Bank uses Equifax Beacon 09, Trans Union Classic 08, Experian FiCO 08/Fair Isaac Auto Loan
Chase Auto Finance uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Fico 8.0
Is this what you were looking for?
@fury1995 wrote:Most auto dealers still have Auto Enhanced Beacon 5.0, Experian FICO II or Trans Union Classic AU 04 however the lender will pull whatever their primary bureau is as described in their dealer agreements and rate sheets. For example:
Wells Fargo uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Fico 8.0
Bank of America uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Industry Adjusted Beacon 9.0
PNC Bank uses Experian FICO 08 Auto Enhanced
BB&T Bank uses FICO Auto Score V8
US Bank uses Equifax Beacon 09, Trans Union Classic 08, Experian FiCO 08/Fair Isaac Auto Loan
Chase Auto Finance uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Fico 8.0
Is this what you were looking for?
EXACTLY!!! Thanks so much!
You seem to have the perfect inside track. Can you also share the score versions for the manufacturers in house lendiing: Mercedes, BMW, Ford etc?
By way of explanation, I am in the mortgage business and we select a loan program for any given Borrower by matching their requirements to the programs offered by the lenders. i.e we wouldn't submit a loan to a particular lender if we know that a borrower would fall foul of a particular requirement. There is no point in submitting an application just to see "what sticks", which is how I perceive most auto dealers handle loan applications.
There are program guidleines and if the Borrower can review those, line by line, with the finance manager, then they can BOTH agree that its not worth the time to submit to a particular lender, while another might be perfect. In my experience, the F&I mangers never share this information.
Back to the mortgage business where Dodd Frank and the CFPB have made transparancy a priority; they have determined that limiting a mortgage loan officers compensation is a way to protect the consumer, however, most in the industry agree that this is a short sighted way for the governemnet to get involved. What if the government restricted or controlled all profits? It would be a disaster.
Having said that, a little more transparency might make for a better environment.
Acura Financial just pulled mine and it was EQ Auto FICO 8.
@fury1995 wrote:Most auto dealers still have Auto Enhanced Beacon 5.0, Experian FICO II or Trans Union Classic AU 04 however the lender will pull whatever their primary bureau is as described in their dealer agreements and rate sheets. For example:
Wells Fargo uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Fico 8.0
Bank of America uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Industry Adjusted Beacon 9.0
PNC Bank uses Experian FICO 08 Auto Enhanced
BB&T Bank uses FICO Auto Score V8
US Bank uses Equifax Beacon 09, Trans Union Classic 08, Experian FiCO 08/Fair Isaac Auto Loan
Chase Auto Finance uses Equifax Auto Enhanced Fico 8.0
Is this what you were looking for?
Awesome info! How do you know all of that?
Do you also have specific conditions besides FICO, income, LTV that they require? For example, I read somewhere Bank of America requires 4 years and 4 lines of credit...
It states what they use on their rate sheets most of the time. Usually we cannot choose which bureau we can force the lender to use, they have their own set of guidelines that they will follow for everyone so that there is no possibility of being accused of discrimination. Sometimes it's a different bureau based on the applicants zipcode/region, sometimes they will allow for an alternate bureau to be used IF their policy states so (usually if there are more positive tradelines on the other bureau with a higher score). Policies changed years ago based on so many class action lawsuits from consumer groups. We see these types of policy changes announced every so often.. most of the time helping the few that accused lenders/dealers of discrimination..... and hurting the majority of folks who at one time could take advantage of loopholes to get a better deal...
Same for dealers.. we pull the same bureaus for customer A as we do for customer B. We present a copy of a disclosure of the bureau's credit score that WE pull.. the one that WE pay for and have access to which is generally whatever we have a subscription to.. the lender may pull a different version as you can see from what I posted above.
The law requires we show you the score for the bureau that WE pull, not what the lender pulls.. they send their own disclosure to you in the mail whether approved or not as required by law, just like when you apply for anything else such as credit cards.
@fury1995 wrote:It states what they use on their rate sheets most of the time. Usually we cannot choose which bureau we can force the lender to use, they have their own set of guidelines that they will follow for everyone so that there is no possibility of being accused of discrimination. Sometimes it's a different bureau based on the applicants zipcode/region, sometimes they will allow for an alternate bureau to be used IF their policy states so (usually if there are more positive tradelines on the other bureau with a higher score). Policies changed years ago based on so many class action lawsuits from consumer groups. We see these types of policy changes announced every so often.. most of the time helping the few that accused lenders/dealers of discrimination..... and hurting the majority of folks who at one time could take advantage of loopholes to get a better deal...
Same for dealers.. we pull the same bureaus for customer A as we do for customer B. We present a copy of a disclosure of the bureau's credit score that WE pull.. the one that WE pay for and have access to which is generally whatever we have a subscription to.. the lender may pull a different version as you can see from what I posted above.
The law requires we show you the score for the bureau that WE pull, not what the lender pulls.. they send their own disclosure to you in the mail whether approved or not as required by law, just like when you apply for anything else such as credit cards.
EXCELLENT response.
While many may think of "discrimination" when it comes to choosing which particular version of any given bureau is pulled, my issue is simply one of "not knowing" which version up-front.
From what you say, an F&I manager should be able to look at any given lenders rate sheet and see which version they are using (with the caveat that the lender might change that behind the scenes). So it would be appropriate for a potential customer to ask in advance which lenders use any particular version.
I've taken the "vagueness" of F&I managers on this topic more as a "just don't know" or "can't take the trouble to find out" rather than any overt form of discimination to sell a higher rate.
From what you say, it should be possible for the F&I manager to know which version they pull at the dealership level: i.e. the dealers report pull BEFORE they submit to a lender. I've even found that to be an area of vagueness which, again, I attribute more to ignorance than any subversive intent.
this is consistent with my experience, dealer pulled transunion and gave that copy, lender WFDS pulled Equifax and use that. This is one of the best posts on this forum. and the first message listing banks and models pulled should be a sticky