A trick for getting sign up bonus

[yfan]

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@longtimelurker wrote:

1) I have a grocery reward but not a restaurant reward.  I buy a $50 gift card to a restaurant at a supermarket, transferring rewards from one segment to another.  Is that OK?  By some of kdm31091's statements "No", I am meant to buy groceries.

2) 5 of us go to a restaurant.   I pay the bill with my card that gets rewards, the others give me cash for their part.  Is that OK?   Not really, I am getting rewards for spending I didn't "really" make.

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1) I don't know of any restaurant gift cards that can be turned back into cash to pay the bill, do you? Restaurant-specific gift cards are not cash equivalents, and hence are not MS.

2) This is a situation where you buy the food, and then sell it back to your friends. That's a business transaction. The terms of the sale is irrelevant to the method of payment. The only thing that matters in terms of MS is whether what was purchased can be turned back into cash without making a sale. The food cannot. No gray area.

[longtimelurker]

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@kdm31091 wrote:

It's not about volume. If you go to a restaurant with a rewards card, but you didn't actually technically buy the meal, at least someone is buying an actual product. No one is trying to cheat a system.

With MS, Someone is completely, 100% trying to cheat a system. That's my point. Whether you want to do or not is up to the individual.

You'd file a complaint for someone refusing to let you buy $1000 in gift cards with credit? Which is clearly MS and against terms and conditions? Yeah, see how that goes over....

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Why would the CCC care that an actual product was bought?   The bottom line is that the CCC expected to pay $X in dining rewards based on their expectations (people with this much income spend so much at restaurants) and suddenly they are on the hook for a whole lot more.    They are paying rewards based on spending of people who aren't their card holders.   Cheating the system!

[yfan]

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@jsucool76 wrote:

+1

if this happened to me I would file a merchant complaint with the network. 

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And if I were a store manager, I couldn't wait to have a customer file such a complaint. I would LOVE it. The network's investigation and discovery process would give the store an opportunity to explain and turn over customer purchase data, not just for that customer but for anyone else also potentially stopped for MSing. How much you wanna bet the networks would then turn over that data to the respective banks so they can shut down the MS accounts?

[Anonymous]

@yfan. That may actually be Illegal.

[longtimelurker]

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@yfan wrote:

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@longtimelurker wrote:

1) I have a grocery reward but not a restaurant reward.  I buy a $50 gift card to a restaurant at a supermarket, transferring rewards from one segment to another.  Is that OK?  By some of kdm31091's statements "No", I am meant to buy groceries.

2) 5 of us go to a restaurant.   I pay the bill with my card that gets rewards, the others give me cash for their part.  Is that OK?   Not really, I am getting rewards for spending I didn't "really" make.

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1) I don't know of any restaurant gift cards that can be turned back into cash to pay the bill, do you? Restaurant-specific gift cards are not cash equivalents, and hence are not MS.

2) This is a situation where you buy the food, and then sell it back to your friends. That's a business transaction. The terms of the sale is irrelevant to the method of payment. The only thing that matters in terms of MS is whether what was purchased can be turned back into cash without making a sale. The food cannot. No gray area.

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It's an area where the CCC is paying out more rewards than it "should".   Purchases of cash-equivalents is a very easy way of making that happen, but these are alternative pathways that lead to same result.

I would suspect if every week I paid for a group of 20 at a fairly expensive restaurant, the CCC would care, because my purchases would exceed my income, just as with cash equivalents.

[jsucool76]

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@yfan wrote:

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@jsucool76 wrote:

+1

if this happened to me I would file a merchant complaint with the network. 

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And if I were a store manager, I couldn't wait to have a customer file such a complaint. I would LOVE it. The network's investigation and discovery process would give the store an opportunity to explain and turn over customer purchase data, not just for that customer but for anyone else also potentially stopped for MSing. How much you wanna bet the networks would then turn over that data to the respective banks so they can shut down the MS accounts?

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That isnt quite how it works. If your store displays any network logos (visa/mc/amex/discover) they are REQUIRED to take those cards for purchases. If you say no, you're in violation of your merchant agreement with the network. For a small business this might mean they no longer do business with you/allow you to accept their cards, for a large business like target for instance, it most likely means a hefty fine. 

and with MC you can't even question a customer. MCs merchant agreement prohibits asking for identification when the customer is using a mastercard. 

[yfan]

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@jsucool76 wrote:

That isnt quite how it works. If your store displays any network logos (visa/mc/amex/discover) they are REQUIRED to take those cards for purchases. If you say no, you're in violation of your merchant agreement with the network. For a small business this might mean they no longer do business with you/allow you to accept their cards, for a large business like target for instance, it most likely means a hefty fine. 

and with MC you can't even question a customer. MCs merchant agreement prohibits asking for identification when the customer is using a mastercard. 

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No one is disputing anything you say. But the moment someone launches a complaint they have to say what transaction was declined. Then the network can ask the merchant why it was declined. There can be legitimate reasons - like they were trying to buy alcohol and didn't have ID, for example - so a complaint, without some investigation, isn't enough to shut off access or assess fines. When they ask, the merchant then gets to say that "well, we have a policy of not selling Visa/MC/Amex gift cards (over a certain amount, if applicable) on credit, and this customer was trying to do that. Here's their items. And here are other customers from your network that tried to do so and we declined."

And a mercahnt absolutely CAN decline credit cards for specific products in the store even if they take credit cards for others. How do I know? The United States Postal Service does this all the time. I am in charge of bulk mailing for my employer, and we often use what's called "precanceled stamps" for bulk mail. You can pick up these stamps at any post office counter, but they will not accept credit cards for these, only debit, check or cash. The Post Office will happily take credit cards, however, for anything else you purchase or other postage and fees.

[jsucool76]

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@yfan wrote:

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@jsucool76 wrote:

That isnt quite how it works. If your store displays any network logos (visa/mc/amex/discover) they are REQUIRED to take those cards for purchases. If you say no, you're in violation of your merchant agreement with the network. For a small business this might mean they no longer do business with you/allow you to accept their cards, for a large business like target for instance, it most likely means a hefty fine. 

and with MC you can't even question a customer. MCs merchant agreement prohibits asking for identification when the customer is using a mastercard. 

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No one is disputing anything you say. But the moment someone launches a complaint they have to say what transaction was declined. Then the network can ask the merchant why it was declined. There can be legitimate reasons - like they were trying to buy alcohol and didn't have ID, for example - so a complaint, without some investigation, isn't enough to shut off access or assess fines. When they ask, the merchant then gets to say that "well, we have a policy of not selling Visa/MC/Amex gift cards (over a certain amount, if applicable) on credit, and this customer was trying to do that. Here's their items. And here are other customers from your network that tried to do so and we declined."

And a mercahnt absolutely CAN decline credit cards for specific products in the store even if they take credit cards for others. How do I know? The United States Postal Service does this all the time. I am in charge of bulk mailing for my employer, and we often use what's called "precanceled stamps" for bulk mail. You can pick up these stamps at any post office counter, but they will not accept credit cards for these, only debit, check or cash. The Post Office will happily take credit cards, however, for anything else you purchase or other postage and fees.

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You also need a permit to buy precanceled stamps, which are a governent issued commodity. Slightly different than say, gift cards. 

[yfan]

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@jsucool76 wrote:

You also need a permit to buy precanceled stamps, which are a governent issued commodity. Slightly different than say, gift cards. 

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No, you don't. You need a permit to USE precanceled stamps in your mailing, but you do NOT need a permit to BUY them. You can walk up to any post office counter and ask for a roll.

I am not arguing that gift cards are the same as precanceled stamps. I am saying that merchants can - and in many cases do - exclude certain products from being purchased with credit cards, and that in and of itself is not a violation for merchant agreements with networks.

[jsucool76]

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@yfan wrote:

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@jsucool76 wrote:

You also need a permit to buy precanceled stamps, which are a governent issued commodity. Slightly different than say, gift cards. 

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No, you don't. You need a permit to USE precanceled stamps in your mailing, but you do NOT need a permit to BUY them. You can walk up to any post office counter and ask for a roll.

I am not arguing that gift cards are the same as precanceled stamps. I am saying that merchants can - and in many cases do - exclude certain products from being purchased with credit cards, and that in and of itself is not a violation for merchant agreements with networks.

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By arguing that merchants can decline credit for certain products, one would think that you would go for a product that you consider similar to the one in question. Not a random product that happens to be a government issued commodity. 

For instance, many vendors deny the use of credit cards for money orders. Probably would've been a better comparison. 

And yes, I am aware that vendors deny the use of credit for some products, however, those are usually part of a store policy, not part of a rogue cashier's mission to stop manufactured spending and save the poor defenseless banks.