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Amex - Black List

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longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@Anonymous wrote:

@fltireguy wrote:

@n777ua wrote:

I wonder what Amex considers "defrauding"?  Fraud can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.


In their eyes, churning could possibly even be construed as fraud....  My opinion..


Very very doubtful that they would consider churning as fraud and you can't churn Amex cards as their bonuses are once in a lifetime.


Right, and even abuse on OBC (cards were closed for using in an inappropriate manner) didn't cause any harm to the relationship, fraud must have a higher threshold.

Message 21 of 30
sjt
Senior Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@Anonymous wrote:

I kind of find the fact that AMEX has such a strict "Blacklist" (especially when compated to other Banks) interesting from a business standpoint....here's why.

 

I think AMEX does this to their own detriment given the events of the past 8-9 years.  There were a lot of cardholders (myself included) who suffered from the finaicial bust.  Keep in mind this wasn't just any turndown...it was big and it affected a lot of people...and a lot of AMEX cardholders who said can't do it any more and walked away from the debt.

 

Some filed BK, others didn't.  What were good, on time payers became (over the coming months) write offs/Bad Debt.

 

Now...it's 7-8 years later.  Many of these people (including me, fortunately) have put their financial house back in order, and have re-establish their credit rating. 

***Also....bear in mind that since it's 7-8 years....most of the Baddies that were created have fallen off the Credit Reports....and these people who have re-establish are going to have more and more offers coming to them.

 

I don't come at this from a position of envy or bitterness....If i never have a card with AMEX again (full disclosure, I am an AU on an FNBO one) it would be no big deal....i can certainly survive the credit world without AMEX.

 

But....I think AMEX may want to reconsider their position.  Should they make an exception to certain past card holders?  Maybe, maybe not.  They certainly have all the data they need to determine (to a pretty good extent) what occured to some of their card holders 7-8 years ago.  I completely understand a company sticking by thier policies...but sometimes you need to allow yourself some flexibility...especially given the fact there are a lot of Banks that are going to go after this segment just by the fact they now qualify.

 

They just lost the Costco deal....a huge revenue loss to be sure.  The CC industry is very competitive, and like an earlier poster mentioned, their Cards are not that special by comparison.  Perhaps they need to rethink their strategy.

 

just my two cents....

 

 


In the original post the OP mentioned that Amex told him they do not have a Blacklist but use the term "Risk Model" So its possible to burn them and still get back in with them.

American Express: Platinum Charge, Optima, Business Gold, Delta Business Reserve, Business Cash, Business Plus
Barclays: Arrival+ WEMC
Capital One: Savor WEMC, Venture X Visa Infinite
Chase: Freedom U Visa Signature, CSR Visa Infinite
Citibank: AAdvantage Platinum WEMC
Elan/US Bank: Fidelity Visa Signature
Credit Union: Cash Back Visa Signature
FICO 08: Score decrease between 26-41 points after auto payoff (11.01.21) FICO as of 5.23, EX: 812 / EQ: 825 / TU: 815
Message 22 of 30
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Amex - Black List


@sjt wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

I kind of find the fact that AMEX has such a strict "Blacklist" (especially when compated to other Banks) interesting from a business standpoint....here's why.

 

I think AMEX does this to their own detriment given the events of the past 8-9 years.  There were a lot of cardholders (myself included) who suffered from the finaicial bust.  Keep in mind this wasn't just any turndown...it was big and it affected a lot of people...and a lot of AMEX cardholders who said can't do it any more and walked away from the debt.

 

Some filed BK, others didn't.  What were good, on time payers became (over the coming months) write offs/Bad Debt.

 

Now...it's 7-8 years later.  Many of these people (including me, fortunately) have put their financial house back in order, and have re-establish their credit rating. 

***Also....bear in mind that since it's 7-8 years....most of the Baddies that were created have fallen off the Credit Reports....and these people who have re-establish are going to have more and more offers coming to them.

 

I don't come at this from a position of envy or bitterness....If i never have a card with AMEX again (full disclosure, I am an AU on an FNBO one) it would be no big deal....i can certainly survive the credit world without AMEX.

 

But....I think AMEX may want to reconsider their position.  Should they make an exception to certain past card holders?  Maybe, maybe not.  They certainly have all the data they need to determine (to a pretty good extent) what occured to some of their card holders 7-8 years ago.  I completely understand a company sticking by thier policies...but sometimes you need to allow yourself some flexibility...especially given the fact there are a lot of Banks that are going to go after this segment just by the fact they now qualify.

 

They just lost the Costco deal....a huge revenue loss to be sure.  The CC industry is very competitive, and like an earlier poster mentioned, their Cards are not that special by comparison.  Perhaps they need to rethink their strategy.

 

just my two cents....

 

 


In the original post the OP mentioned that Amex told him they do not have a Blacklist but use the term "Risk Model" So its possible to burn them and still get back in with them.


Blacklist - Risk Model  = Potayto - Potahto...LOL.  I thought OP referred to accounts IIB...Not sure just walking away from the debt is the same thing to them.

Message 23 of 30
Namaste7
Established Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@sjt wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

I kind of find the fact that AMEX has such a strict "Blacklist" (especially when compated to other Banks) interesting from a business standpoint....here's why.

 

 

[.....]

 

But....I think AMEX may want to reconsider their position.  Should they make an exception to certain past card holders?  Maybe, maybe not.  They certainly have all the data they need to determine (to a pretty good extent) what occured to some of their card holders 7-8 years ago.  I completely understand a company sticking by thier policies...but sometimes you need to allow yourself some flexibility...especially given the fact there are a lot of Banks that are going to go after this segment just by the fact they now qualify.

 

[....]

 

just my two cents....

 

 


In the original post the OP mentioned that Amex told him they do not have a Blacklist but use the term "Risk Model" So its possible to burn them and still get back in with them.


 

Based on the points you made sjt, I think AMEX, as well as other prime banks are taking a wider approach in lending. While myFICO repesents a minority of the population, we are beginning to see more and more favorable data points for individuals post BK they not only reestablished their credit to where it was before the financial crisis, but often creating a stronger, more diverse portfolio that includes relationships with prime banks. 

 

I've always assumed AMEX blacklist resulted in the fact that while they probably don't get burned as frequently as CapitalOne, when they do get burn it's major balances (well into 5 figures). I think they realized there was no reasonable way to grow their portfolio continuing with strict standards hence the multi-factor risk model to evaluate applicants. Bank of America, Citi and US Bank are opening the door to credit rebuilders through their secured card products.

 

I think the NFCU, SDFCU, and the plethora of other credit unions have found a sweet spot in the market (between the highly qualified and moderately qualifed credit profiles) and now the prime/national banks are realizing thaty if they don't join in, they very well may be left out in the future. 

 

For AMEX, this minimal softening is probably the best we'll see from them. However, I think this is the step in the right direction and gives people who experienced an unexpected circumstance that with patience and prudence, all things can generally be restored!

 

*sorry for the typos. night owl*

 

 

 

 

~~MMXX~~
2024 Goal$
2023 Goal$
FICOs 760+
Message 24 of 30
sjt
Senior Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@taxdoc wrote:

@sjt wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

I kind of find the fact that AMEX has such a strict "Blacklist" (especially when compated to other Banks) interesting from a business standpoint....here's why.

 

 

[.....]

 

But....I think AMEX may want to reconsider their position.  Should they make an exception to certain past card holders?  Maybe, maybe not.  They certainly have all the data they need to determine (to a pretty good extent) what occured to some of their card holders 7-8 years ago.  I completely understand a company sticking by thier policies...but sometimes you need to allow yourself some flexibility...especially given the fact there are a lot of Banks that are going to go after this segment just by the fact they now qualify.

 

[....]

 

just my two cents....

 

 


In the original post the OP mentioned that Amex told him they do not have a Blacklist but use the term "Risk Model" So its possible to burn them and still get back in with them.


 

Based on the points you made sjt, I think AMEX, as well as other prime banks are taking a wider approach in lending. While myFICO repesents a minority of the population, we are beginning to see more and more favorable data points for individuals post BK they not only reestablished their credit to where it was before the financial crisis, but often creating a stronger, more diverse portfolio that includes relationships with prime banks. 

 

I've always assumed AMEX blacklist resulted in the fact that while they probably don't get burned as frequently as CapitalOne, when they do get burn it's major balances (well into 5 figures). I think they realized there was no reasonable way to grow their portfolio continuing with strict standards hence the multi-factor risk model to evaluate applicants. Bank of America, Citi and US Bank are opening the door to credit rebuilders through their secured card products.

 

I think the NFCU, SDFCU, and the plethora of other credit unions have found a sweet spot in the market (between the highly qualified and moderately qualifed credit profiles) and now the prime/national banks are realizing thaty if they don't join in, they very well may be left out in the future. 

 

For AMEX, this minimal softening is probably the best we'll see from them. However, I think this is the step in the right direction and gives people who experienced an unexpected circumstance that with patience and prudence, all things can generally be restored!

 

*sorry for the typos. night owl*

 

 

 

 


I agree. I think banks were forced to reexamine things after the meltdown. I also think they were forced to look into new markets as the "prime" customers were shrinking and has been over saturated with card offers.

It does seem Amex has softened a little, but they will always be more hardlined then other lenders because they  dont sell their debt and it can always be a leverage.


American Express: Platinum Charge, Optima, Business Gold, Delta Business Reserve, Business Cash, Business Plus
Barclays: Arrival+ WEMC
Capital One: Savor WEMC, Venture X Visa Infinite
Chase: Freedom U Visa Signature, CSR Visa Infinite
Citibank: AAdvantage Platinum WEMC
Elan/US Bank: Fidelity Visa Signature
Credit Union: Cash Back Visa Signature
FICO 08: Score decrease between 26-41 points after auto payoff (11.01.21) FICO as of 5.23, EX: 812 / EQ: 825 / TU: 815
Message 25 of 30
sjt
Senior Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@Anonymous wrote:

@sjt wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

I kind of find the fact that AMEX has such a strict "Blacklist" (especially when compated to other Banks) interesting from a business standpoint....here's why.

 

I think AMEX does this to their own detriment given the events of the past 8-9 years.  There were a lot of cardholders (myself included) who suffered from the finaicial bust.  Keep in mind this wasn't just any turndown...it was big and it affected a lot of people...and a lot of AMEX cardholders who said can't do it any more and walked away from the debt.

 

Some filed BK, others didn't.  What were good, on time payers became (over the coming months) write offs/Bad Debt.

 

Now...it's 7-8 years later.  Many of these people (including me, fortunately) have put their financial house back in order, and have re-establish their credit rating. 

***Also....bear in mind that since it's 7-8 years....most of the Baddies that were created have fallen off the Credit Reports....and these people who have re-establish are going to have more and more offers coming to them.

 

I don't come at this from a position of envy or bitterness....If i never have a card with AMEX again (full disclosure, I am an AU on an FNBO one) it would be no big deal....i can certainly survive the credit world without AMEX.

 

But....I think AMEX may want to reconsider their position.  Should they make an exception to certain past card holders?  Maybe, maybe not.  They certainly have all the data they need to determine (to a pretty good extent) what occured to some of their card holders 7-8 years ago.  I completely understand a company sticking by thier policies...but sometimes you need to allow yourself some flexibility...especially given the fact there are a lot of Banks that are going to go after this segment just by the fact they now qualify.

 

They just lost the Costco deal....a huge revenue loss to be sure.  The CC industry is very competitive, and like an earlier poster mentioned, their Cards are not that special by comparison.  Perhaps they need to rethink their strategy.

 

just my two cents....

 

 


In the original post the OP mentioned that Amex told him they do not have a Blacklist but use the term "Risk Model" So its possible to burn them and still get back in with them.


Blacklist - Risk Model  = Potayto - Potahto...LOL.  I thought OP referred to accounts IIB...Not sure just walking away from the debt is the same thing to them.


To me a blacklist means out right denial until you pay them back. Risk model weighs the loss against other factors in your credit/financial profile, so it would be possible to get back in the door with them depending on your profile.

American Express: Platinum Charge, Optima, Business Gold, Delta Business Reserve, Business Cash, Business Plus
Barclays: Arrival+ WEMC
Capital One: Savor WEMC, Venture X Visa Infinite
Chase: Freedom U Visa Signature, CSR Visa Infinite
Citibank: AAdvantage Platinum WEMC
Elan/US Bank: Fidelity Visa Signature
Credit Union: Cash Back Visa Signature
FICO 08: Score decrease between 26-41 points after auto payoff (11.01.21) FICO as of 5.23, EX: 812 / EQ: 825 / TU: 815
Message 26 of 30
sjt
Senior Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List

I spoke with a friends about the "fraud" that was in reference to the OP conversation with Amex. He said it was most likely referring to people who max out their cards prior to a BK filing.

American Express: Platinum Charge, Optima, Business Gold, Delta Business Reserve, Business Cash, Business Plus
Barclays: Arrival+ WEMC
Capital One: Savor WEMC, Venture X Visa Infinite
Chase: Freedom U Visa Signature, CSR Visa Infinite
Citibank: AAdvantage Platinum WEMC
Elan/US Bank: Fidelity Visa Signature
Credit Union: Cash Back Visa Signature
FICO 08: Score decrease between 26-41 points after auto payoff (11.01.21) FICO as of 5.23, EX: 812 / EQ: 825 / TU: 815
Message 27 of 30
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Amex - Black List

Came here looking for some info on that too... recently had a friend not on the boards who's wife swiped her card at her business to pay for equipment/supplies that she couldn't use her Amex for directly. Amex cancelled both of her accounts (blue/gold), saying they have a zero tolerance policy for using the card outside of what's outlined in the membership agreement, and there's no appeal or challenge process for the decision, it happens automatically. 10 years with immaculate history and they just cancelled everything without warning. They say she is more than welcome to reapply but haven't heard if that worked or not. 

Message 28 of 30
darwin_wins
Established Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@Anonymous wrote:

Came here looking for some info on that too... recently had a friend not on the boards who's wife swiped her card at her business to pay for equipment/supplies that she couldn't use her Amex for directly. Amex cancelled both of her accounts (blue/gold), saying they have a zero tolerance policy for using the card outside of what's outlined in the membership agreement, and there's no appeal or challenge process for the decision, it happens automatically. 10 years with immaculate history and they just cancelled everything without warning. They say she is more than welcome to reapply but haven't heard if that worked or not. 


What do you mean she swiped where shouldn't have? Did she use her personal card for business expenses? Yea that is a big no-no with AmEx. 

Message 29 of 30
sjt
Senior Contributor

Re: Amex - Black List


@Anonymous wrote:

Came here looking for some info on that too... recently had a friend not on the boards who's wife swiped her card at her business to pay for equipment/supplies that she couldn't use her Amex for directly. Amex cancelled both of her accounts (blue/gold), saying they have a zero tolerance policy for using the card outside of what's outlined in the membership agreement, and there's no appeal or challenge process for the decision, it happens automatically. 10 years with immaculate history and they just cancelled everything without warning. They say she is more than welcome to reapply but haven't heard if that worked or not. 


Policy violation does not equal blacklist. Blacklist is when you default and have not paid them back. There is probably a "cooling off" period before your friend's wife can apply again. Its probably 6 months.

You should have her write to Amex EO and /or the address on the letter she received and explain the situation. It cant hurt.


American Express: Platinum Charge, Optima, Business Gold, Delta Business Reserve, Business Cash, Business Plus
Barclays: Arrival+ WEMC
Capital One: Savor WEMC, Venture X Visa Infinite
Chase: Freedom U Visa Signature, CSR Visa Infinite
Citibank: AAdvantage Platinum WEMC
Elan/US Bank: Fidelity Visa Signature
Credit Union: Cash Back Visa Signature
FICO 08: Score decrease between 26-41 points after auto payoff (11.01.21) FICO as of 5.23, EX: 812 / EQ: 825 / TU: 815
Message 30 of 30
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