Reply
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 499
Registered: ‎02-08-2013
0

Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?

With the Citi Prestige rivaling the Amex Plat, it got me wondering if Chase will ever make one of their own. I'm talking about CCs that are available to the general public (so that leaves out Amex Centurion, JP Morgan Palladium, etc.).

 

The Chase Sapphire Preferred got close, but it's no where on the perk level of the Plat/Prestige.

 

For those long term CC experts and/or users that have been in the game for a long time, do you think Chase will come out with something in the forseable future (2-4 years)?

     
Senior Contributor
Posts: 4,694
Registered: ‎02-23-2011
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?

[ Edited ]

SuperKirby wrote:

With the Citi Prestige rivaling the Amex Plat, it got me wondering if Chase will ever make one of their own. I'm talking about CCs that are available to the general public (so that leaves out Amex Centurion, JP Morgan Palladium, etc.).


The JPM Ritz is Chase’s answer to the Amex Platinum.

 

  • It has the $200 airline credit without restrictions, but you have to often call for the redemption
  • Marriott Gold
  • Membership in Lounge Club
  • JPM Premier Concierge
  • 5X points and 2X travel/dining Ritz points earned, $100 hotel credit and upgrade to Club level

In my view, for a person with SPG status who frequents the Ritz, this card is better than the Platinum.  However, the Platinum does have access to AA, Delta and US Air lounges, which is a nice perk.  Also, while rare, there are some Ritz’s who refuse to participate on the program where the Plat’s FHR program can still potentially be a better option.

 

From my perspective, I find the JPM a better value proposition than the Amex Plat. 

 

Given the rate of points devaluation en masse (by recent harvesting, sign up bonuses and manufactured spending), I’m leaning towards focusing on points that may retain a longer term value, e.g. spg, ritz, and certain MR partners.

 

In my view, we’re approaching a point where expensive redemptions have more value than the current “value” redemptions which are all subject to severe devaluation pressure, i.e. Hilton and all the points amassed through manufactured spending.

 

For the moment, I’m leaning towards those programs relatively unaffected by this harvesting; spg and those rewards programs where these harvesters will never flood their points with, such as the Ritz (no one will use cheesed URs for this, since they’re all going to UA, Hyatt, or Marriott first) and SQ (MRs will be used in other carriers first).

 

And, regarding the Prestige, given how freely Citi has given away TY points to checking customers (over the years, my friend has opened up 30K TY checking account bonuses 4 times) and the prodigious amount of TY abuse inspired by the unlimited 5X Preferred, I'm going to avoid this card, regardless of the other perks.  A recent premium cabin trans Pacific flight with a group of college kids in t-shirts and sandals (I can't tolerate bare feet on flights) has convinced me that there are times when it's not worth seeking value.  A moment of peace, tranquility and a dignified environment is, as Visa would say, priceless.

 

*Edited* PS - The premium car rental memberships are so easy to qualify for, I don't even consider it a perk.  And, the Plat's companion business class ticket is such an egregious ripoff, Amex should be embarassed to tout it as a "perk."

Frequent Contributor
Posts: 499
Registered: ‎02-08-2013
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?

[ Edited ]

@Open123, very good insight, thank you.

     
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2,300
Registered: ‎01-22-2012
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?

Open has made some excellent points regarding the JPM Ritz and Citi Prestige, as well as about valuations and devaluations. One of the best ways to predict the likelyhood of an impending devaluation is to see how many points are flowing into the system, and this can be done by seeing how many ways they can flow in.

 

For example, BA Avios can be generated through UR, MR, SPG, etc. The net result is that we've seen large devaluations in the past 5 years or so. Other MR transfer partners such as ANA and Singapore only generate points via MR transfer, and Amex tightly controls manufactured spending through FR. The net result is that these programs are much more stable in the long-term, and therefore the risk is much lower for devaluations on the scale of Hilton earlier this year.

 

I highly doubt that Chase will add a card that the OP described in the next 2-4 years. Truly "game-changing" cards (CSP, SPG, etc.) only come around once every several years at best, so we'll have awhile to wait. As the old expression goes "if it's not broken don't fix it", and in Chase's case it's working quite well. However instead of adding new cards, what Chase really needs to do is to continue to improve the UR program by adding high-value transfer partners.

 

In saying high-value, I specifically mean United and Hyatt (and perhaps to a much much lesser extent Southwest). Very few people would transfer UR points to Marriott, and nobody in their right mind would transfer them to PC unless it's to take advantage of PointBreaks. Transferring to Virgin is also generally a poor value given the high YQ charges, and Amtrak just isn't that popular.

 

The major problem UR faces currently is two-fold. First and foremost it's currently a "two-trick pony." The second is that it's vulnerable to becoming even less than that through devaluations, thereby destroying any real value in the entire program. The power in UR resides in it's flexibility and transferrability, but as I said previously there's really only two transfer partners of value. Given how many points are floating around in the system, Hyatt is ripe for a devaluation and I wouldn't be surprirsed if we see a significant one in the next year or two. All of the UR points created by sign-up bonuses, 5x manufactured spending, etc. will all eventually come home to roost and take its toll.

 

Airline miles generally resist devaluation better than hotel points because there are only so many seats on a plane that are available for mileage redemptions. The number of available seats is based on what the airline thinks it won't be able to sell. Computers these days are very good in both tracking past flights and predicting future availability. The net result is that if an airline thinks that they will sell a seat, it simply will become unavailable for miles and will be sold instead. Regardless of whether there are 10 billion or 100 billion miles floating around, those miles are still chasing a finite number of seats which can be limited as airlines see fit.

 

Now compare this to hotels with a no-blackout dates policy. Hotels are in a very different situation since loyalty programs such as Hyatt Gold Passport have to reimburse hotels based on their occupancy levels. So if a hotel is 95% full and a person wants to redeem points, the hotel will be reimbursed the full ADR. The logic here is that since they were so full, the odds are that room would have sold anyways. However if a hotel is only 15% full, they'd only be reimbursed a fraction of the ADR.

 

This policy came about because hotels didn't want to be financially disadvantaged by accepting guests paying with points, so in many ways it's win-win for them. If the hotel is full, they'll still get the full rate and they don't care whether it comes from the guest or from Hyatt Gold Passport. However if the rooms would have gone empty and a points guest comes around, they'll get reimbursed a reduced rate but it's better than nothing.

 

Now let's bring this back to the UR question and being a two-trick pony. Currently it's two tricks are United and Hyatt. If it loses one of these, then UR essentially loses the majority of it's value. Let's imagine for a moment that Hyatt has a massive devaluation and isn't seen as a good place to transfer points to anymore. The only transfer partner left of any significant worth would be United, and in this case there's not much incentive to have the CSP.

 

If all of your points will eventually become United miles anyways (because there's no value in any of the other transfer partners), why not simply get a United Explorer card instead? You'd get 2 annual lounge passes, and pickup the free bag privilege and priority boarding for the same annual fee. This would be a massive blow to UR, and would really remove much of the incentive for people to use the CSP heavily. Yes the UR mall would still exist, but United has it's own shopping portal now
(as does most of the other major airlines such as US Airways, etc.).

 

Chase should focus on improving the UR program, and specifically by adding a 3rd high value transfer partner. This is a much higher priority IMO than simply adding a new card or product. Given how many points are floating around and that Hyatt already resisted a devaluation earlier this year, I'd venture that they have (at most) 2 years to do this before Hyatt has no choice but to impose a devaluation. They're trying to resist it at the moment by limiting the number of quarterly promotions, but eventually they'll lose that battle as the points continue to be transferred in. At that point UR may as well become a one-trick pony, and that defeats the entire point of what transferrability is all about. Chase needs to be pro-active in this to ensure UR's longevity.

FICOs: EX: 826, EQ: 817, TU: 810
Bank of America Privileges with Travel Rewards Visa Signature - $23,200 CL
Chase Sapphire Preferred Visa Signature - $12,700 CL
Chase United MileagePlus Club World Elite MasterCard - $26,500 CL
Citibank American Airlines Executive World Elite MasterCard - $22,500 CL
J.P. Morgan Ritz Carlton Visa Signature - $23,500 CL
Contributor
Posts: 116
Registered: ‎06-08-2013
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?


Open123 wrote:

SuperKirby wrote:

With the Citi Prestige rivaling the Amex Plat, it got me wondering if Chase will ever make one of their own. I'm talking about CCs that are available to the general public (so that leaves out Amex Centurion, JP Morgan Palladium, etc.).


The JPM Ritz is Chase’s answer to the Amex Platinum.

 

  • It has the $200 airline credit without restrictions, but you have to often call for the redemption
  • Marriott Gold
  • Membership in Lounge Club
  • JPM Premier Concierge
  • 5X points and 2X travel/dining Ritz points earned, $100 hotel credit and upgrade to Club level

In my view, for a person with SPG status who frequents the Ritz, this card is better than the Platinum.  However, the Platinum does have access to AA, Delta and US Air lounges, which is a nice perk.  Also, while rare, there are some Ritz’s who refuse to participate on the program where the Plat’s FHR program can still potentially be a better option.

 

From my perspective, I find the JPM a better value proposition than the Amex Plat. 

 

Given the rate of points devaluation en masse (by recent harvesting, sign up bonuses and manufactured spending), I’m leaning towards focusing on points that may retain a longer term value, e.g. spg, ritz, and certain MR partners.

 

In my view, we’re approaching a point where expensive redemptions have more value than the current “value” redemptions which are all subject to severe devaluation pressure, i.e. Hilton and all the points amassed through manufactured spending.

 

For the moment, I’m leaning towards those programs relatively unaffected by this harvesting; spg and those rewards programs where these harvesters will never flood their points with, such as the Ritz (no one will use cheesed URs for this, since they’re all going to UA, Hyatt, or Marriott first) and SQ (MRs will be used in other carriers first).

 

And, regarding the Prestige, given how freely Citi has given away TY points to checking customers (over the years, my friend has opened up 30K TY checking account bonuses 4 times) and the prodigious amount of TY abuse inspired by the unlimited 5X Preferred, I'm going to avoid this card, regardless of the other perks.  A recent premium cabin trans Pacific flight with a group of college kids in t-shirts and sandals (I can't tolerate bare feet on flights) has convinced me that there are times when it's not worth seeking value.  A moment of peace, tranquility and a dignified environment is, as Visa would say, priceless.

 

*Edited* PS - The premium car rental memberships are so easy to qualify for, I don't even consider it a perk.  And, the Plat's companion business class ticket is such an egregious ripoff, Amex should be embarassed to tout it as a "perk."


Plat’s FHR program?  Could someone define please?!?



Starting Score: 573
Current Score: 764 EX (FAKO)
Goal Score: 760 all 3


Take the myFICO Fitness Challenge
Super Contributor
Posts: 9,964
Registered: ‎04-22-2013
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?


Open123 wrote:

SuperKirby wrote:

With the Citi Prestige rivaling the Amex Plat, it got me wondering if Chase will ever make one of their own. I'm talking about CCs that are available to the general public (so that leaves out Amex Centurion, JP Morgan Palladium, etc.).


 

And, regarding the Prestige, given how freely Citi has given away TY points to checking customers (over the years, my friend has opened up 30K TY checking account bonuses 4 times) and the prodigious amount of TY abuse inspired by the unlimited 5X Preferred, I'm going to avoid this card, regardless of the other perks.  A recent premium cabin trans Pacific flight with a group of college kids in t-shirts and sandals (I can't tolerate bare feet on flights) has convinced me that there are times when it's not worth seeking value.  A moment of peace, tranquility and a dignified environment is, as Visa would say, priceless.

 

 


Not sure I get the last bit!  Whatever flight you are on, people who HAVE participated in the TY program may be in the premium cabin, ruining your peace!   This is part of the issue with cash-equivalent points, you can more easily avoid point-junkies from other programs by using non-included carriers.

Senior Contributor
Posts: 4,694
Registered: ‎02-23-2011
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?


longtimelurker wrote:

Not sure I get the last bit!  Whatever flight you are on, people who HAVE participated in the TY program may be in the premium cabin, ruining your peace!   This is part of the issue with cash-equivalent points, you can more easily avoid point-junkies from other programs by using non-included carriers.


With the recent proliferation of TY harvesting opportunities, I'm assuming most will fall into one of the following:  (1) cashout via mortgage/student loans, which has recently been devalued for many; (2) those "point-junkies" would likely not pay the fee for the Prestige; (3) if they were to, I'd imagine they'd use the companion ticket benefit, which limits their flights to coach; (4) and, finally, even at 1.33, SQ (and, other carriers like them) premium flights are generally priced so high, many would still avoid them.

 

I'm not sure the status of the Premier, but it's unlikely any "rewards junkie" would willingly pay a fee for it.  I'm certainly not!  :smileyvery-happy:

 

Generally, the more inclusive a program, the more valuable and worthwhile it will grow to become, such as the MR program when it started.  The issues arise when there are those (such as myself) who find ways to earn points within the rules of the T&C inconsistent with the program's intention.  

 

I'm assuming these "point-junkies" college kids (not meant in a demeaning way, of course) won't "waste" all of their hard earned TY harvested points on a premium SQ flight.  And, if the person did, well I'd imagine we'd share some Sauternes & foie gras and get along just fine all the way to Asia.  :smileywink:

 

 

Super Contributor
Posts: 9,964
Registered: ‎04-22-2013
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?

OK, I thought that they *were* in your premium cabin,,,,,

Senior Contributor
Posts: 4,694
Registered: ‎02-23-2011
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?


longtimelurker wrote:

OK, I thought that they *were* in your premium cabin,,,,,


They *were," but it wasn't on an SQ flight.  

 

While the experience was more boisterous than I'd prefer, I was their age once and understand their enthusiasm experiencing a premium cabin for the first time.  Aside from having much newer fleets, one of the reasons I generally favor the SE Asian carriers is because they often lack the restraints American carriers have in resolving such issues.

 

While each flight experience varies, I'd imagine an SE Asian carrier would have taken more assertive measures to maintain a "less" boisterous environment for their other patrons.

Super Contributor
Posts: 7,132
Registered: ‎02-27-2013
0

Re: Amex Plat / Citi Prestige / Chase...?

Glad to see someone that likes SQ too! :smileyhappy:

People doing lewd stuff in private suites are sometimes a problem on SQ flights recently (usually Singapore to EU flights), and they even had to give out handouts that such actions are not permitted on board. Enforcing this obviously has been a nightmare for many reasons, but generally its still not a big issue. Just not the best experience for people seated right behind the suites. The banging, moaning and......
JPMorgan Palladium (100k), AmEx Platinum (NPSL), AmEx SPG (46k), AmEx BCP (42k), Chase Sapphire Preferred (47k), Citi Prestige (31k), Citi Thank You Preferred (27k), Citi Executive AAdvantage (25k), JPMorgan Ritz-Carlton (21k), Merrill+ (15k), US Bank Cash+ (22.5k), Wells Fargo (12k), Bloomingdale’s (12.4k), Chase Freedom (5k), Discover IT (5k).
Advertiser Disclosure: The listings that appear on myFICO are from companies from which myFICO receives compensation, which may impact how and where products appear on myFICO (including, for example, the order in which they appear). myFICO does not review or include all companies or all available products.

Copyright ©2001-2015 Fair Isaac Corporation. All rights reserved.   | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Sitemap

IMPORTANT INFORMATION: All FICO® Score products made available on myFICO.com include a FICO® Score 8, along with additional FICO® Score versions. Your lender or insurer may use a different FICO® Score than the versions you receive from myFICO, or another type of credit score altogether. Learn more

FICO, myFICO, Score Watch, The score lenders use, and The Score That Matters are trademarks or registered trademarks of Fair Isaac Corporation. Equifax Credit Report is a trademark of Equifax, Inc. and its affiliated companies. Many factors affect your FICO Score and the interest rates you may receive. Fair Isaac is not a credit repair organization as defined under federal or state law, including the Credit Repair Organizations Act. Fair Isaac does not provide "credit repair" services or advice or assistance regarding "rebuilding" or "improving" your credit record, credit history or credit rating. FTC's website on credit.