Amex wants to verify my income

[Anonymous]

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@longtimelurker wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

The only thing I'd like to add is that your paranoia about this situation is enough to make them even more suspicious of you.  Anyone else would likely just comply because why else wouldn't they.  "Ummm, any other documentation I can provide?"  5 hours later with a disinterested service rep... "Are you sure there isn't anything else that I could submit."  LOL!  AMEX is by far the best and if I were you I wouldn't ruin that relationship.  Good luck, bud.

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No one is making any presuppositions about what an Amex relationship is worth. I would argue that even Capital One has just as much right to request proof of income if they are extending you credit and want reassurance that you have the income to pay them back. Also, everyone here is simply reminding you that no invasion of privacy is being made if Amex is  giving you a choice to comply, which effectively they are. You have every right, on both legal and your own ethical grounds, to deny their requests. It's not like Amex has run to the government and forced anyone to hand over their W-2s. Amex has done absolutely nothing wrong here. Nothing.

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Well, the bolded part shows that some people have suggested what an Amex relationship is worth.

I really don't understand the rest of your comment.    Of course there is no invasion of privacy merely asking for the form, it's privacy concerns that prevent some people complying.  Amex has done nothing wrong.   Neither have those that refuse to submit the transcript.    Either side can terminate the relationship.   What IS wrong is the assumption from some here that the only reason to fail to comply is because you lied about your income.

And, for that matter, I suspect that most people wouldn't do it for Cap One, but will for Amex, so there is some evaluation of worth of relationship.

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Oy vey. I never said that anyone would value an Amex and Capital One relationship the same. Heck, I wouldn't. I simply said that Capital One has just as much right to ask for proof of income as Amex.

And if you're actually in agreement with me that there is no invasion of privacy asking for that information, then I guess there is nothing else that needs to be said. But that doesn't really seem consistent with your comments on this thread.

[longtimelurker]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@longtimelurker wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

The only thing I'd like to add is that your paranoia about this situation is enough to make them even more suspicious of you.  Anyone else would likely just comply because why else wouldn't they.  "Ummm, any other documentation I can provide?"  5 hours later with a disinterested service rep... "Are you sure there isn't anything else that I could submit."  LOL!  AMEX is by far the best and if I were you I wouldn't ruin that relationship.  Good luck, bud.

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No one is making any presuppositions about what an Amex relationship is worth. I would argue that even Capital One has just as much right to request proof of income if they are extending you credit and want reassurance that you have the income to pay them back. Also, everyone here is simply reminding you that no invasion of privacy is being made if Amex is  giving you a choice to comply, which effectively they are. You have every right, on both legal and your own ethical grounds, to deny their requests. It's not like Amex has run to the government and forced anyone to hand over their W-2s. Amex has done absolutely nothing wrong here. Nothing.

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Well, the bolded part shows that some people have suggested what an Amex relationship is worth.

I really don't understand the rest of your comment.    Of course there is no invasion of privacy merely asking for the form, it's privacy concerns that prevent some people complying.  Amex has done nothing wrong.   Neither have those that refuse to submit the transcript.    Either side can terminate the relationship.   What IS wrong is the assumption from some here that the only reason to fail to comply is because you lied about your income.

And, for that matter, I suspect that most people wouldn't do it for Cap One, but will for Amex, so there is some evaluation of worth of relationship.

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Oy vey. I never said that anyone would value an Amex and Capital One relationship the same. Heck, I wouldn't. I simply said that Capital One has just as much right to ask for proof of income as Amex.

And if you're actually in agreement with me that there is no invasion of privacy asking for that information, then I guess there is nothing else that needs to be said. But that doesn't really seem consistent with your comments on this thread.

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OK, not sure where [you think] I said that. The references to privacy issues are always IF you submit the form (i.e. why some people chose not to.)  

[Anonymous]

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@longtimelurker wrote:

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@ElBarrbaro wrote:

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@CreditCuriousity wrote:

I am kinda suprised more CC companies don't make you show some sort of proof of income aka paystubs when you apply pending approval..  Would save them alot of headaches on defaults.  

Don't get me wrong, I have never lied on a CC application about my income and I still got myself in trouble, but if they did this up-front one would think it would lower the default rate and avoid these situations down the road.  Granted AMEX wants the tax forms along sometimes with citi and possibly other lenders I am missing.

Just can't believe most CC creditor's take you word for income is all.

This is not meant to say the OP or anyone else lies about their income, but lets be honest here...Some do.

Doesn't AMEX have the lowest losses in the business of CC companies?  

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Im just so surprised that people have no troubly hading over same documents to take out a loan to buy a house or car, (a debt that is secured by said property or vehicle) but balk at a credit card money that "lends" out millions of dollars to millions of customers on a daily basis in the form of unsecured CCs...mind boggling really.  "I want your CC with that high UNSECURED credit limit, but don't ask anything other than what's on this short online application and we will be ok"...smh.   

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I am surprised at your surprise.   Whether secured or not, the amounts involved in mortgages are typically much larger than most CLs.   More to the point, they are "really" lending the money, many people would not be able to buy a house without a mortgage, whereas many of us here PIF on the cards each month, and use it much more for rewards/convenience than to make purchases we could not have otherwise made.

And the real bottom line is that nearly all mortgage companies require these docs, whereas most ccc's don't.  Anything unusual raises questions

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^^

That was the main one. Also the one where you mentioned "privacy" specifically on page 6.. I suppose I might have misunderstood what you meant, however. I would suppose you would know what you meant in your own posts more than I would.

[NRB525]

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@Anonymous wrote:
It's a personal card, though my person and my business are linked almost synonymously. I wouldn't mind if they have me a hard limit of 30k or less. In that case, I'd just pay it if I needed to charge more. In fact, I would prefer having a limit that I could depend on. While it's rare that I've been denied a purchase, it has happened. But amex is my largest credit line without question-- no other card I carry would let me go up as high, even the npsl ones.

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I understand your desire to keep things private, but with a NPSL card, you are also asking AMEX to take a big leap in trusting YOU. As far as privacy goes, I would imagine there are bigger fish in the sea, those with the Centurion card for example, who make even larger monthly spend, and undoubtedly find the reasons to trust AMEX with more information about their finances than the typical cardholder. When you get into these numbers, you still have to trust someone. AMEX is, for all intents and purposes, your bank. Why don't you think you can trust your banker?

Regarding consequences, if you don't provide the 4506-T they will likely at least restrict your available charge limit. It is their way of reducing risk, plain and simple.

Good luck!

[longtimelurker]

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@NRB525 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:
It's a personal card, though my person and my business are linked almost synonymously. I wouldn't mind if they have me a hard limit of 30k or less. In that case, I'd just pay it if I needed to charge more. In fact, I would prefer having a limit that I could depend on. While it's rare that I've been denied a purchase, it has happened. But amex is my largest credit line without question-- no other card I carry would let me go up as high, even the npsl ones.

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I understand your desire to keep things private, but with a NPSL card, you are also asking AMEX to take a big leap in trusting YOU. As far as privacy goes, I would imagine there are bigger fish in the sea, those with the Centurion card for example, who make even larger monthly spend, and undoubtedly find the reasons to trust AMEX with more information about their finances than the typical cardholder. When you get into these numbers, you still have to trust someone. AMEX is, for all intents and purposes, your bank. Why don't you think you can trust your banker?

Regarding consequences, if you don't provide the 4506-T they will likely at least restrict your available charge limit. It is their way of reducing risk, plain and simple.

Good luck!

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These sort of arguments make it sound like you are going up to someone in the street and saying "Lend me $30K" and being surprised when they ask for some documentation.  Amex already has access to your credit reports, so they can see if you have been a good client in the past, and as 4056-T requests are only for current customers, they will usually have purchase and payment history on a Amex card.    The level of trust isn't THAT huge, and with a NPSL card, they are free to also decline any transaction they choose, so they also mitigate the risk that way.

But AFAIK, they only ask for transcripts in two sitations, FRs and certain CLIs.   I certainly don't have any problem understanding why they want more details in those situations, and PROBABLY they find that tax returns give the most value in predicting risk for the least cost.  ("Probably", because in many big corporations you gett procedures that are done because they have always been done that way, and no-one looks for better alternatives)   

And equally I have no problem in understanding why people refuse to provide the forms, valuing privacy concerns over the perceived value of keeping the card(s).  

[red259]

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@CreditCuriousity wrote:

I guess my thought on this is if you didn't lie on your application who really cares if they ask for pay stubs or tax returns?  Ya a FR is a pain in the butt, but they are covering there butt as well.  If I ever need to carry a balance on an Amex I will as that is a point of a revolver thus they give you this option.  Will it sucks if I get FR'ed ya?  Will I come out of it fine if I do as I am hiding nothing, yep..  People worry way to much about this.  They could just shut down your account like other lenders, but they give you a chance to prove you are able to re-pay, and didn't lie on your application.  Just my 2 cents on this.  You should not apply for an amex card if you are worried about getting a FR.  It is very rare, but it does happen.

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Not going to go into a whole thing here because this has been dabted time and time again. Bottom line is that while you may be ok giving over your tax returns there are many people here who don't want to give that info over for a whole number of reasons. I don't think people should not apply for amex because of a chance of an FR as it isn't super common. 

[red259]

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@ojefferyo wrote:

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@baller4life wrote:
I know many have said differently but this story and many many others confirms my belief that Amex prefers you not to carry a balance. And I never ever will.

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I don't think carrying a balance will trigger this, my sister carries a balance on hers and have had no problems whatsoever. I beleive that when AMEX wants to verify income is when you spend more than what they think you can pay back coupled with a big balance and possible small payments.

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+1 This sounds closer to the mark. Especially if people are spending more than what their reported income would normally support. I have carried a balance with amex before on my 0%APR card. Granted it was a fairly small balance and I only carried if for a month or two. For long term carrying balances I probably would elect to do so with another lender, because some lenders actually seem to like people who carry balances. 

[mikelo22]

If I were faced with an FR situation, I would likely just close out my account. No, I don't lie on my income, nor do I lie about any other part of my application. The FR speaks to a privacy issue for me, and the documents Amex asks for I would not be comfortable in handing over. Using the argument that, "well, if you didn't lie about your income or if you have nothing to hide, then why should you mind? Just give 'em what they want.." That's the same line of faulty reasoning that cops might ask someone if they can search their car. Even if you had nothing to hide, would you really want a cop snooping around you car, going through all your belongings, etc? To me, it's invasive, over the top, and disrespectful. 

Credit Cards are not like mortgages. I don't need Amex's Credit Card. I have plenty of others. I always PIF and I never buy something that I couldn't otherwise afford by paying straight up with cash--thus the relationship b/w a credit card vs a mortgage is extremely weak.

On the other hand, I need a mortgage if I want to buy a house. Furthermore, such documents are expected when applying for a mortgage, but most credit card companies do not feel it necessary to snoop around into a consumer's personal financial documents. 

Yes, Amex has every right to request additional docs during an FR. But so, too, are consumers within their right to thumb their noses at them and just walk away. And I think it's wrong to judge someone who places personal privacy above a simple credit card. Both sides have equally legitimate grounds for their personal opinions on this issue.

It's situations like these where I cannot emphasize enough the need to diversify your credit card portfolio. Don't get married to any one CCC. Never forget that at the end of the day, this is just a business relationship. If any one CCC tries to burn me, yes, it will irritate me, but because I have diversified myself, I will not be held to the whim of the demands of any particular CCC. As consumers, we have the power of choice. So use that to your advantage. 

[NRB525]

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@mikelo22 wrote:

If I were faced with an FR situation, I would likely just close out my account. No, I don't lie on my income, nor do I lie about any other part of my application. The FR speaks to a privacy issue for me, and the documents Amex asks for I would not be comfortable in handing over. Using the argument that, "well, if you didn't lie about your income or if you have nothing to hide, then why should you mind? Just give 'em what they want.." That's the same line of faulty reasoning that cops might ask someone if they can search their car. Even if you had nothing to hide, would you really want a cop snooping around you car, going through all your belongings, etc? To me, it's invasive, over the top, and disrespectful. 

Credit Cards are not like mortgages. I don't need Amex's Credit Card. I have plenty of others. I always PIF and I never buy something that I couldn't otherwise afford by paying straight up with cash--thus the relationship b/w a credit card vs a mortgage is extremely weak.

On the other hand, I need a mortgage if I want to buy a house. Furthermore, such documents are expected when applying for a mortgage, but most credit card companies do not feel it necessary to snoop around into a consumer's personal financial documents. 

Yes, Amex has every right to request additional docs during an FR. But so, too, are consumers within their right to thumb their noses at them and just walk away. And I think it's wrong to judge someone who places personal privacy above a simple credit card. Both sides have equally legitimate grounds for their personal opinions on this issue.

It's situations like these where I cannot emphasize enough the need to diversify your credit card portfolio. Don't get married to any one CCC. Never forget that at the end of the day, this is just a business relationship. If any one CCC tries to burn me, yes, it will irritate me, but because I have diversified myself, I will not be held to the whim of the demands of any particular CCC. As consumers, we have the power of choice. So use that to your advantage. 

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And which bank do you have in mind who would allow $60k in charges to accumulate on one card in one months' time?

What sort of info might that bank want to know about the borrower?

[bada_bing]

One alternative method of income verification that Amex might accept is theworknumber.com, if your employer subscribes to that service. Amex does use theworknumber.com to verify employment, although I've never heard of anyone asking for them to use it, rather than a 4506T, for income verification.

One other observation I have for people concerned over the privacy issues of a 4506T. If Amex pulled your tax returns with a 4506T and the information obtained was ever used by another party without your consent, you wouldn't have to worry about working any more. The liability for a deep pockets company like Amex is astronomical. You would have hit the jackpot. I could only wish that my tax information was compromised by Amex, I'd love to retire to the south of France. Needless to say, the chances of that type of data compromise are very remote, because companies like Amex are aware of the liability. I worry quite a bit about the intrusion into my finances by the USA government when they force me to file my taxes. I don't worry much at all about a private company like Amex using it for a narrowly defined legitimate business purpose.