Are double miles cards misleading? Please advise!!

[PowerMan572]

I've been using the Barclaycard Arrival and the Capital One Venture card to get double miles. After doing a little investigating tonight, are these cards a bit misleading? I spend $20,000 to get 40,000 miles and will receive $400 in travel credit on my Barclaycard to wipe away a travel charge.

I always thought "double miles! Awesome! Why would anyone want a Skymiles or an Aadvantage card and only get 1 mile per dollar spent?" Well after looking at how many miles you need to redeem for a free ticket, it's much less than I thought! For instance, looking at the Aadvantage Award Chart here, flying within the Continental U.S. only takes 12,500 miles!! which is equivalent to $12,500. With Barclaycard, if I spend $12,500, I am going to get 23,000 miles which is only equivalent to $230 off a plane ticket. That's absurd! I'm not going to get a plane ticket within the Continental U.S. for $230. Not out of MSP.

Looking a little further down the AAdvantage Award Chart, flying North America to Europe on Peak season would take 30,000 miles (aka $30,000.) If I spend $30k with Barclaycard, that's only 60,000 miles which is equivalent to $600. Let's face it, for me flying from Minneapolis to Europe... I'm not going to be able to buy a ticket for $600. So woudln't it make more sense for me to be using a program like AAdvantage? What about Delta Skymiles? Why are people continuing to use these double mile cards if they're just fooling you?

I'm just starting out with this game, and I'm not too far in to switch. So I could really use everyone's input!!

EDIT: I understand the benefits of a Barclaycard or Cap1 Venture, because you're not stuck with 1 airline. However, it seems you have to spend MUCH MORE to be able to redeem the full amount back for your travel purchase. 

[user5387]

The term "miles" has no standard meaning.

In particular, some travel cards with double miles are actually cashback cards in disguise, meaning that you get a 2% credit against future travel purchases.

Other travel cards earn "real" miles, that can be redeemed for flights directly.

Which is better depends on your circumstances.

[FocusedAndDetermined]

I don't view the term "double miles" as misleading.  Regardless of what you spend you get twice the spend in miles/pts.  Also, keep in mind that whatever you redeem you receive 10% back.  A 40K redemption will give you 4K back or in the end only cost 36K for the travel. 

With the Arrival one doesn't have to be concerned with blackout dates and can rate shop between carriers.  The miles can also be redeemed for other travel related expenses like hotels.

You are correct in that the conversion/redemption yield is greater with loyalty programs, but then you have the restrictions that part of those programs.  In the end, it is a matter of travel habits/preferences vs ease and convenience.

I just got the Arrival and for now it will work great because I don't do a lot of travel.  In a couple of years a loyalty program will probably work better.  By then I will know who my preferred carriers/hotels are - right now I don't.

[longtimelurker]

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@FocusedAndDetermined wrote:

I don't view the term "double miles" as misleading.  Regardless of what you spend you get twice the spend in miles/pts.  Also, keep in mind that whatever you redeem you receive 10% back.  A 40K redemption will give you 4K back or in the end only cost 36K for the travel. 

With the Arrival one doesn't have to be concerned with blackout dates and can rate shop between carriers.  The miles can also be redeemed for other travel related expenses like hotels.

You are correct in that the conversion/redemption yield is greater with loyalty programs, but then you have the restrictions that part of those programs.  In the end, it is a matter of travel habits/preferences vs ease and convenience.

I just got the Arrival and for now it will work great because I don't do a lot of travel.  In a couple of years a loyalty program will probably work better.  By then I will know who my preferred carriers/hotels are - right now I don't.

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Yes, depends on circumstances which is better for you (and then there are the UR/SPG/MR programs that earn points that can be transferred to a variety of programs).

Miles is really deceptive in both the cash-back and loyalty programs.    There have been posts on here asking if, for example, I earn 40K miles on AA, can I redeem it for 40K miles on AA (e.g. at least 6 coast-to-coast round-trips)?   The answer is of course "No", but that is the most natural interpretation of earning miles.   So in all these cases, they are just "points" with different rules for redeeming into something real.

[Open123]

The term "miles" as it relates to the Arrival or Venture is a misnomer.  You don't actually "earn" miles, but a form of glorified cashback (2X) when redeemed for qualified travel expenditures.

True "miles" are those rewards which are either directly into an FF/Hotel or may be trasnferred directly (MR, UR, and SPG) into associated FF/Hotel rewards programs for direct redemptions.  As you have found yourself, there are times when redemming with a carrier's or hotel's rewards points has a higher value than 2% cashback, or 2% travel statement credits (they're not miles, in the strict sense of the word).

All things being equal, for the frequent or moderate traveler, actual rewards or direct miles earning cards will be better.  The glorified cashback cards (Arrival and Venture) would be better if you:  (1) are unable to grasp the spatial concept of direct miles value; (2) are too busy to learn and sign up for the FF & Hotel rewards programs; (3) only travel very infrequently, and flexible enough to find the cheapest (through hotwire) fare possible; and, (4) when you do travel, you stay at the most cost effective hotels which aren't a part of any rewards programs.

I'd say in most 90% of flights, a better value can be had by utilizing FF miles redemptions from the carrier's program.  For the 10% of the time, it's better to opt to pay with cash or, in this case, a travels related statement credit.  

[longtimelurker]

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@Open123 wrote:

The term "miles" as it relates to the Arrival or Venture is a misnomer.  You don't actually "earn" miles, but a form of glorified cashback (2X) when redeemed for qualified travel expenditures.

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Right, but as I said above, you aren't really earning  actual miles in the FF programs either.  They are just points, and, for example, 40K "miles" can buy a RT in coach to Europe off-peak, which is more like 6-10K real miles.  So I don't fault Barclays or Cap One for misusing the term in really the same way, just with a simplier conversion factor.

[Open123]

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@longtimelurker wrote:

Right, but as I said above, you aren't really earning  actual miles in the FF programs either.  They are just points, and, for example, 40K "miles" can buy a RT in coach to Europe off-peak, which is more like 6-10K real miles.  So I don't fault Barclays or Cap One for misusing the term in really the same way, just with a simplier conversion factor.

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I see what you're saying, just as the 50K MR points aren't actually miles, but just denomination that can be converted into miles, or a value to purchase airfare.

Where the I find the miles term to be misleading is that intrinsically, aside from the non-forex feature, neither the Venture nor Arrival is any more of a "travel" card than, say, the Fid Amex.  If anything, the 2% on Fid Amex can be used to offset any spending under the Sun, not just limited to travel related expenses.  I'd argue that for many who eschew direct FF miles redemption, the Fid Amex is a better travel card than either the Arrival or Venture.  I suspect, it's the intentional obfuscation of "Miles" that have many associate the latter two as more of a travel card than the Fid Amex.

PS - The breakeven point for the $89 fee on the Arrival vs. the Fid Amex is at aprox $45,000 (a little less).  In other words, the Arrival is better if you spend over $45K and redeem all for travel credits, the 10% rebate will make up for the annual fee. 

[user5387]

Both the Fidelity Amex and the Cap One Venture are 2%, and the Cap One has a $59 AF.

So I don't see how it would be better unless it's an issue of wider MasterCard / Visa acceptance or no FETF.

I expect that the same is true for other travel cards, especially when used in a context where a person doesn't travel much.

[Open123]

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@user5387 wrote:

Both the Fidelity Amex and the Cap One Venture are 2%, and the Cap One has a $59 AF.

So I don't see how it would be better unless it's an issue of wider MasterCard / Visa acceptance or no FETF.

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Right, unless there's a need for no FTF, there is no case where the Venture is better, unless a person had $30K to spend in Visa/MC only places.  Then, just use a no fee Visa, such as Quicksilver or Fid Visa, and Fid Amex everywhere else.

Basically, aside from spending abroad, there is no situation where the Venture is best in class for domestic spending period.

[shols44]

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@PowerMan572 wrote:

I've been using the Barclaycard Arrival and the Capital One Venture card to get double miles. After doing a little investigating tonight, are these cards a bit misleading? I spend $20,000 to get 40,000 miles and will receive $400 in travel credit on my Barclaycard to wipe away a travel charge.

I always thought "double miles! Awesome! Why would anyone want a Skymiles or an Aadvantage card and only get 1 mile per dollar spent?" Well after looking at how many miles you need to redeem for a free ticket, it's much less than I thought! For instance, looking at the Aadvantage Award Chart here, flying within the Continental U.S. only takes 12,500 miles!! which is equivalent to $12,500. With Barclaycard, if I spend $12,500, I am going to get 23,000 miles which is only equivalent to $230 off a plane ticket. That's absurd! I'm not going to get a plane ticket within the Continental U.S. for $230. Not out of MSP.

Looking a little further down the AAdvantage Award Chart, flying North America to Europe on Peak season would take 30,000 miles (aka $30,000.) If I spend $30k with Barclaycard, that's only 60,000 miles which is equivalent to $600. Let's face it, for me flying from Minneapolis to Europe... I'm not going to be able to buy a ticket for $600. So woudln't it make more sense for me to be using a program like AAdvantage? What about Delta Skymiles? Why are people continuing to use these double mile cards if they're just fooling you?

I'm just starting out with this game, and I'm not too far in to switch. So I could really use everyone's input!!

EDIT: I understand the benefits of a Barclaycard or Cap1 Venture, because you're not stuck with 1 airline. However, it seems you have to spend MUCH MORE to be able to redeem the full amount back for your travel purchase. 

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Powerman, you  have just discovered the difference between fixed value redemptions (Capone, arrival) and true airline based rewards.  With airline based programs you earn and accrue with the specific airline either by flying (distance travelled earnings) or by spending through affiliated cards (1:1) or portals (25-1 miles/$1) or app bonuses. Fixed value redemptions IMO are very good for domestic travel in coach. Some programs are flexible (arrival) and can be used for hotels and car rentals as well. Airline based programs for me are best used for premium international travel. That's where the most value is like business class round trip to s.e Asia for 90k miles with us airways. Assuming the ticket costs $5000, you would need 500k points with Capone to redeem that value. Similarly, I would rather keep my 30k miles with American and buy a coach ticket for $400. See my point?

If you are new to miles and points, I would suggest doing both. Depending on your travel goals, I would recommend fixed value for domestic travel, and a true loyalty program for international travel. If you have a lot of domestic transcontinental travel, I might think differently though because my main goal would be status over miles. Once your travel goals are set, unless you have major personal and business spend, the average person just can't accrue enough outside of bonus miles. Typiically, some form of augmentation is needed. For more on that, google is your friend.