Best way to use Amex MR Points?

[ryanbush]

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@gpfirestone wrote:

Personally I wish I never had to use the Amex.  If you look back at my why I hate boa post, you will understand kind of what happened.  FIA closed my entire line of credit which was around $60k with no warning.  The only other CC's I had at the time were sub 10k limit Amex BC and sub 10k limit Chase Freedom.  I had to scramble to get a good card for business purchases and the only way to get a quick ability to spend what I needed to was Amex Bus Platinum.  I couldn't get the Plum at the time, no idea what the reason was but I'm sure they wanted to see serious spending first.  Have spent about $300k on the plat card so far, got 125,000 bonus pts also which I used to book some flights using pts as cash with the 20% return.  Also used my $200 travel credit and the airline lounges a few time so the fee wasn't terrible.  Now that I have the plum and CAP1 has put me up to $15k on my 2% card I am no longer putting charges on the Amex Plat and need to use these pts so I can cancel the card...My AF comes up in April so if I can get the moved to a mileage program I save $450 or I could pay the fee and wait 1 more year and use the airline credit in 2013 and 2014 before I cancel getting another $400...so I dunno.  I just want to be done with MR and back to cash back cards.

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First off you didn't "have" to get the platinum, there is no difference in spending ability between it and the business gold.  If I was in your case I would downgrade it to the business Gold and use it for your personal spending and use your Plum card for business spending.

This will allow you to keep the card and keep earning points while "hiding" your personal spending from the CRAs so that you're utilization stays lower.  This is what most people who own small businesses do so that they aren't showing DEBT and messing with their scores

[FutureBillionaire]

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@ryanbush wrote:

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@FutureBillionaire wrote:

This thread strengthens the point that folks have been making regarding the lack of punch behind Amex cards. 

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not sure where you're going here, just becasue you can't cash out your rewards every couple of months doesn't mean the cards are no good.  with any kind of airline/points/miles card you have to spend quite a bit to get rewards often.  If you don't spend as much you have to wait a while before you cash out you're rewards.

I have never used MR points or skymiles for less than 2c each, so my green card and my Delta amex are esentially 2% back or more cards.

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I find that there is more value in UR points.  I also would contend that it's easier to earn points through the Chase card rather than through Amex.

[FutureBillionaire]

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@ryanbush wrote:

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@flowfaster wrote:

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@GoldenloveNY wrote:

At the end of the day, nothing beats a no annual fee 1-5% cashback card.

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Agreed.  People that like to travel check out the Penfed Travel Amex card.

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I also have no quams if an AF is justified (like the BCP) but the Amex family of charge cards(except maybe the Plat) are not.  IMO

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Depends on how much money you spend, There are a lot of people that spend 250K a year on a AMEX charge card that don't want to go through the hassle of dealing with Credit Cards and their HARD limits (use I know amex has an internal limit)

Plus the to the person that spends 250K a year on just an AMEX card that 2500 in cash back is really just a drop in the bucket but being able to take their family on a nice vacation at the end of the year without spending a penny is priceless.

AMEX Charge cards are not really designed for the person that spend 10-15K a year, you have to push moeny through them but the rewards are more than worth it in the end.  To people that have money the experiences they provide are worth more than the cash back

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All of my spending is done with credit cards.  I don't get the rewards back on Amex as I do on other cards, with the exception of the BCP. It makes far more sense to me to run spending through Chase and other non annual fee cards that let me quickly earn a bunch of points.  In the case of Chase, these points are more powerful and easier to use, imho.

[FutureBillionaire]

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@CreditScholar wrote:

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@pdog661 wrote:

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@CreditScholar wrote:

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@flowfaster wrote:

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@ryanbush wrote:

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@flowfaster wrote:

Honestly you should sell them on one those deal sites and get $200+ cash.  MR points suck big time.

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MR points only "suck" if you don't know how to use them, While I will agree that they aren't worth as much on average as UR points there are many instances where people have gotten 3-4c per out of MR points.  this makes them suck signifiantly less if you know how to use them.

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How often does that happen though?  When all the planets are alligned?  Meanwhile your paying a $95 AF.  Just does not make sense if your goal is save/make money.  Why not use another card like the Priceline or the Travel Penfed card.?  Hell if you ran the 30,000 through the Priceline card thats $600.  Run that same 30,000 through and Amex charge card and you get 30,000 points that is maybe worth $150 minus $95.  Or transfer them to an Airline at a generous 2x and your still paying an AF of $95.  And thats ONLY if they are running a promotion.  I realize many people are loyal to Amex but times are a changing. 

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30k MR points are worth a lot more than $150. You should probably read up on MR more.

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You are very correct.  Gift cards are usually the lowest return on points, and 30K is a $250 gift card.

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One of the downsides to these forums is that people are often encouraged (or encourage themselves) to seek out cards that simply won't work well for them.

I can't begin to count how many people spending 10-15k annually want a CSP, or a PRG while spending less than 25-30k, or an Amex Platinum when they don't travel that much. Yes they are "prestigious" cards to some, but utlimately high AF rewards cards are tilted towards heavy spenders.

The only exceptions might be those cards who offer an annual bonus to offset the AF like the Hyatt card. Even then while it gives you a free night, few people will go to a hotel for just one night each year. It's supposed to encourage you to spend the other 4 nights of your 5 night vacation in a Hyatt instead of a Marriott, Starwood property, etc.

If someone is a low spender, they won't geneate enough points to offset the high AFs. Lenders like Amex know this, and have lowered their approval standards accordingly. Why? They know that they can get a large AF out of someone, and at the same time not have to give them much in the way of rewards because they just don't spend enough. As a result they're happy to charge you that $175 AF on a PRG and hand out only 15k MR points. It's good for them yet bad for the individual in question.

People need to know their place with regards to annual spending, AFs and appropriate cards. If you're a low earner (and therefore a low spender), high AF cards won't make sense unless you're willing to pay just for the perceived prestige. Some people just don't get this and then whinge because they're using products designed for people with higher spending profiles.

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If you pair the CSP with the Freedom, the CSP is as good as some of the other great cash back cards, or maybe even better.  If you spend 10 to 15k on a CSP and max out rewards on the Freedom, you will end up in pretty good shape.

[ryanbush]

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@FutureBillionaire wrote:

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@ryanbush wrote:

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@flowfaster wrote:

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@GoldenloveNY wrote:

At the end of the day, nothing beats a no annual fee 1-5% cashback card.

---

Agreed.  People that like to travel check out the Penfed Travel Amex card.

.

I also have no quams if an AF is justified (like the BCP) but the Amex family of charge cards(except maybe the Plat) are not.  IMO

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Depends on how much money you spend, There are a lot of people that spend 250K a year on a AMEX charge card that don't want to go through the hassle of dealing with Credit Cards and their HARD limits (use I know amex has an internal limit)

Plus the to the person that spends 250K a year on just an AMEX card that 2500 in cash back is really just a drop in the bucket but being able to take their family on a nice vacation at the end of the year without spending a penny is priceless.

AMEX Charge cards are not really designed for the person that spend 10-15K a year, you have to push moeny through them but the rewards are more than worth it in the end.  To people that have money the experiences they provide are worth more than the cash back

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All of my spending is done with credit cards.  I don't get the rewards back on Amex as I do on other cards, with the exception of the BCP. It makes far more sense to me to run spending through Chase and other non annual fee cards that let me quickly earn a bunch of points.  In the case of Chase, these points are more powerful and easier to use, imho.

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I feel like you're turning this into a UR vs MR debate, there is no denying that the UR program is very lucrative, and most including myself agree that the UR is more valuable for the average person than MR is.

That said MR is a very valuable program for "big" spenders

[Cdnewmanpac]

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@CreditScholar wrote:

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@pdog661 wrote:

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@CreditScholar wrote:

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@flowfaster wrote:

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@ryanbush wrote:

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@flowfaster wrote:

Honestly you should sell them on one those deal sites and get $200+ cash.  MR points suck big time.

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MR points only "suck" if you don't know how to use them, While I will agree that they aren't worth as much on average as UR points there are many instances where people have gotten 3-4c per out of MR points.  this makes them suck signifiantly less if you know how to use them.

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How often does that happen though?  When all the planets are alligned?  Meanwhile your paying a $95 AF.  Just does not make sense if your goal is save/make money.  Why not use another card like the Priceline or the Travel Penfed card.?  Hell if you ran the 30,000 through the Priceline card thats $600.  Run that same 30,000 through and Amex charge card and you get 30,000 points that is maybe worth $150 minus $95.  Or transfer them to an Airline at a generous 2x and your still paying an AF of $95.  And thats ONLY if they are running a promotion.  I realize many people are loyal to Amex but times are a changing. 

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30k MR points are worth a lot more than $150. You should probably read up on MR more.

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You are very correct.  Gift cards are usually the lowest return on points, and 30K is a $250 gift card.

---

One of the downsides to these forums is that people are often encouraged (or encourage themselves) to seek out cards that simply won't work well for them.

I can't begin to count how many people spending 10-15k annually want a CSP, or a PRG while spending less than 25-30k, or an Amex Platinum when they don't travel that much. Yes they are "prestigious" cards to some, but utlimately high AF rewards cards are tilted towards heavy spenders.

The only exceptions might be those cards who offer an annual bonus to offset the AF like the Hyatt card. Even then while it gives you a free night, few people will go to a hotel for just one night each year. It's supposed to encourage you to spend the other 4 nights of your 5 night vacation in a Hyatt instead of a Marriott, Starwood property, etc.

If someone is a low spender, they won't geneate enough points to offset the high AFs. Lenders like Amex know this, and have lowered their approval standards accordingly. Why? They know that they can get a large AF out of someone, and at the same time not have to give them much in the way of rewards because they just don't spend enough. As a result they're happy to charge you that $175 AF on a PRG and hand out only 15k MR points. It's good for them yet bad for the individual in question.

People need to know their place with regards to annual spending, AFs and appropriate cards. If you're a low earner (and therefore a low spender), high AF cards won't make sense unless you're willing to pay just for the perceived prestige. Some people just don't get this and then whinge because they're using products designed for people with higher spending profiles.

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Valid, but perhaps oversimplified. It isn't just about reward points generated minus fees paid equals benefit. Many of the cards that come with perks, status, etc. have an annual fee. An individual may value that perk enough that the annual fee is "justified" regardless of spending. I used to travel a lot for a previous job. No international stuff, but lots of short hop flights, rental car long drives, overnight hotel stays in BFE, etc. As a result, I had elite status on a couple airlines and hilton hotels. About 15 years ago, I went back to school and changed careers. Now, I travel waaaaaay less and mostly for pleasure/family stuff. But I miss the perks that came with elite status. So when I find an opportunity to recreate some of those perks using a credit card, I do it. In my case, I've been able to at least offset the fees with real economic benefits, but there is no question I would have gotten more "cash" than my current setup. I may not earn enough points to fly 1st class to Singapore, but I'm not going to Singapore any time soon. I do get my family to the west coast 3-4 x/year on southwest for points, we eat breakfast for free whereaver we go and I use the heck out of the CSP concierge (which has booked unique activities, gotten last minute reservations and gotten me tee times I don't think I could have gotten just calling).

The big point you are making, that people should do the math themselves and take their spending habits into account when either choosing cards or posting comments, is completely valid. But for many of us, a straight cash benefit is not really the point. But I think we can all agree that the users of this board would be generally better served by figuring out which cards meet THEIR needs BEFORE they get the cards.

[LionLaw]

I never thought this post would spark a debate on the value of annual fees for rewards cards, but it's become an interesting discussion. Cdnewmanpac makes some good points; while I might have been able to maximize my rewards for a lower cost with different cards, I get a lot of non-economic value out of my PRG. Between the MR points and those benefits, I feel like I am getting more than my money's worth for $175 a year. Of course, it's not quite as much value as I've gotten out of the Zync and its $40 annual fee, but sadly the Zync's benefits are fading, and it may not be around much longer.

[distantarray]

Amex to Air Canada then Air Canada to book flights on United (Star Alliance rewards)

[Open123]

In general, I think UR points are more valuable and flexible for the everyday user, especially since it can always be converted to "cash" at 0.1 cent.  This creates a nice buffer value for the points, kind of like tying it to a gold standard, if you will.

Where MR is better is for the exchange of certain airlines only offered in the Amex program.  For instance, I prefer SQ to Asia.  Unless I have a massive amount of points accrued, the only way to redeem for a SQ flight is a transfer from MR.  There is virtually no other way or method for me to acquire the points.  SQ never discounts its flights.  So, if one we're inclined to fly business class on SQ, aside from paying full fare, would be to use "sign up" bonuses and bonus spending points from the MR program for the ticket.

This is an isolated case, but I'm sure there are many isolated instances where MR is more valuable than any other program.  Of course, I could say the same for UR, SPG, and even Thank You. 

In my estimation, it's prudent to diversify your rewards programs with options to use when it has the most benefit, rather than sticking with a single program.

[webhopper]

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@napplegate wrote:

I was just able to book a roundtrip ticket from Chicago to Cancun to visit my parents who reside in Tulum.  By transferring MR points to British Airways and then using them to book American Airlines flights it came to 28,100 MR points (Avios) and $96 dollars.  I would like to think this is a pretty good value as a round trip ticket to mexico routinely runs over $550.  I can also transfer my UR points to British Airways if I so chose to accomplish the same thing.  I plan on using them for Marriot hotel redemption but if I choose to stay at a Ritz Carlton property I can pool both my MR and UR points as well.  Annual fees are not always about bang for your buck but sometimes about perks and convenience as well.  If you're not a heavy spender then Amex charge cards are not a good fit (if you have to rationalize $175 or $450 a year then it's not the card for you.

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Now that's why I have a PRG... I want to go somewhere really cool with my family using points for the travel portion of it.  My work also has a point recognition system for being a good performer... so if I combine work points with MR points I could go to a local (within the US) for me and my husband for about 4 days.

Now, if i continue to save points, we'll be going on an international vacation next year.  We already went to sweden this year thanks to Volvo Overseas Delivery... so next year maybe we'll be able to go somewhere very interesting 0.o