@axlm wrote:
@UncleB wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:All Comenity cards were opend within 2 months. I am with you being nervous, I got nervous myself and at one point said to myself "Are they stupid?"
I have 8 other credit cards with diffrent banks that are setting at 0 balance (Don't know what to say, I just love my DEBIT card too much), 4 paid personal loans and auto loan that almost paid off. My AAoA is little over 12 years
This was just fun and now came back to bite me. They got me good, but again, A $45 in court can cost them thousands, it's just a matter of (What goes around, comes around) Do I need all the headache? Maybe not, but I do not like not being in control of my finance.
+1
I'm with you on the 'addiction' to the debit card... for so long it was my only way to pay, and I guess I just got used to its simplicity. It took me a while to get used to using credit for everything, but once I got 'in the groove' I never looked back.
Folks on here occasionally talk of lenders being concerned with a 'bust-out'. It's usually mentioned in terms of making payments purposely to create a credit balance (which makes many lenders nervous), but there are other actions that can also be viewed as 'suspicious' by some lenders (and to varying degrees). This wasn't the case with your Comenity situation, but the quantity and size of your accounts might have been triggers as well.
Here's an interesting document I came across a little while back that details some of what they might be looking for... ironically several of the so-called "indicators" are business-as-usual for many of us here on myFICO... it was quite enlightening, at least to me.
http://www.experian.com/assets/decision-analytics/white-papers/bust-out-fraud-white-paper.pdf
So, according to Experian, 90% of myFICO members are going to bust-out?
Really interesting, thanks for the link!
LOL... yeah, I guess it looks that way to them!
The document does speak of 'false positives', and that could be what 'trips up' some of us on here. Maybe not specifically with the Experian product, but with other products using a similar algorithm.
It's one of those things that I deem as "lousy" for us, but as long as we are aware it exists (and other similar products) we should be able to successfully work around it, or rather, through it... most of the time, anyway. 
@UncleB wrote:
@axlm wrote:
@UncleB wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:All Comenity cards were opend within 2 months. I am with you being nervous, I got nervous myself and at one point said to myself "Are they stupid?"
This was just fun and now came back to bite me. They got me good, but again, A $45 in court can cost them thousands, it's just a matter of (What goes around, comes around) Do I need all the headache? Maybe not, but I do not like not being in control of my finance.
+1
I'm with you on the 'addiction' to the debit card... for so long it was my only way to pay, and I guess I just got used to its simplicity. It took me a while to get used to using credit for everything, but once I got 'in the groove' I never looked back.
Folks on here occasionally talk of lenders being concerned with a 'bust-out'. It's usually mentioned in terms of making payments purposely to create a credit balance (which makes many lenders nervous), but there are other actions that can also be viewed as 'suspicious' by some lenders (and to varying degrees). This wasn't the case with your Comenity situation, but the quantity and size of your accounts might have been triggers as well.
Here's an interesting document I came across a little while back that details some of what they might be looking for... ironically several of the so-called "indicators" are business-as-usual for many of us here on myFICO... it was quite enlightening, at least to me.
http://www.experian.com/assets/decision-analytics/white-papers/bust-out-fraud-white-paper.pdf
So, according to Experian, 90% of myFICO members are going to bust-out?
LOL... yeah, I guess it looks that way to them!
The document does speak of 'false positives', and that could be what 'trips up' some of us on here. Maybe not specifically with the Experian product, but with other products using a similar algorithm.
It's one of those things that I deem as "lousy" for us, but as long as we are aware it exists (and other similar products) we should be able to successfully work around it, or rather, through it... most of the time, anyway.
kinda wild read.. Thanks.. Ya alot of MyFico fall into at least obtaining alot of credit portion although other areas not quite as much in the article such as utilization and bouncing checks, risky purchases, etc.. Does raise an eyebrow though and was a good at skimming through it.
I guess OP opening all those TL's with comenity within a short period of time is what triggered it within their computer system to AA those accounts. The reason the Visa's were probably choosen is they could be used anywhere as the store credit cards has less risk associated with them
@CreditCuriousity wrote:kinda wild read.. Thanks.. Ya alot of MyFico fall into at least obtaining alot of credit portion although other areas not quite as much in the article such as utilization and bouncing checks, risky purchases, etc.. Does raise an eyebrow though and was a good at skimming through it.
I guess OP opening all those TL's with comenity within a short period of time is what triggered it within their computer system to AA those accounts. The reason the Visa's were probably choosen is they could be used anywhere as the store credit cards has less risk associated with them
Thing is, according to that document, utilization is tipically low up to 3 months before the bust-out, and bad checks are used to further the damage once they know they are going to default, not before. In short, people with more cards/inquiries than the average user, poor AAoA with low util and good payment history.
Yup, I still think it sounds like many of us around here. 
@CreditCuriousity wrote:
@UncleB wrote:
@axlm wrote:
@UncleB wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:All Comenity cards were opend within 2 months. I am with you being nervous, I got nervous myself and at one point said to myself "Are they stupid?"
This was just fun and now came back to bite me. They got me good, but again, A $45 in court can cost them thousands, it's just a matter of (What goes around, comes around) Do I need all the headache? Maybe not, but I do not like not being in control of my finance.
+1
I'm with you on the 'addiction' to the debit card... for so long it was my only way to pay, and I guess I just got used to its simplicity. It took me a while to get used to using credit for everything, but once I got 'in the groove' I never looked back.
Folks on here occasionally talk of lenders being concerned with a 'bust-out'. It's usually mentioned in terms of making payments purposely to create a credit balance (which makes many lenders nervous), but there are other actions that can also be viewed as 'suspicious' by some lenders (and to varying degrees). This wasn't the case with your Comenity situation, but the quantity and size of your accounts might have been triggers as well.
Here's an interesting document I came across a little while back that details some of what they might be looking for... ironically several of the so-called "indicators" are business-as-usual for many of us here on myFICO... it was quite enlightening, at least to me.
http://www.experian.com/assets/decision-analytics/white-papers/bust-out-fraud-white-paper.pdf
So, according to Experian, 90% of myFICO members are going to bust-out?
LOL... yeah, I guess it looks that way to them!
The document does speak of 'false positives', and that could be what 'trips up' some of us on here. Maybe not specifically with the Experian product, but with other products using a similar algorithm.
It's one of those things that I deem as "lousy" for us, but as long as we are aware it exists (and other similar products) we should be able to successfully work around it, or rather, through it... most of the time, anyway.
kinda wild read.. Thanks.. Ya alot of MyFico fall into at least obtaining alot of credit portion although other areas not quite as much in the article such as utilization and bouncing checks, risky purchases, etc.. Does raise an eyebrow though and was a good at skimming through it.
I guess OP opening all those TL's with comenity within a short period of time is what triggered it within their computer system to AA those accounts. The reason the Visa's were probably choosen is they could be used anywhere as the store credit cards has less risk associated with them
And the terminalogy is Aggressive Credit Seeking. Many lenders will give AA if too many accounts opened too soon. Honestly im surprised they did not close all the accounts. I really just wonder if there is a way for op to get accounts re opened.
Interesting read, thanks for the link. I am still not sure what they want, got nothing from them yet. It might be just a security letter that they want some IDs, I can't really tell and they wont give me a straight answer either. It just makes me wonder why they are leaving my credit limits/cash available as is when I log in into my accounts. Shouldn't that be set to 0?
Time to buy few things from OS since I have 12K to play with and bust What a shame
@axlm wrote:
@CreditCuriousity wrote:kinda wild read.. Thanks.. Ya alot of MyFico fall into at least obtaining alot of credit portion although other areas not quite as much in the article such as utilization and bouncing checks, risky purchases, etc.. Does raise an eyebrow though and was a good at skimming through it.
I guess OP opening all those TL's with comenity within a short period of time is what triggered it within their computer system to AA those accounts. The reason the Visa's were probably choosen is they could be used anywhere as the store credit cards has less risk associated with them
Thing is, according to that document, utilization is tipically low up to 3 months before the bust-out, and bad checks are used to further the damage once they know they are going to default, not before. In short, people with more cards/inquiries than the average user, poor AAoA with low util and good payment history.
Yup, I still think it sounds like many of us around here.
One interesting snippet is that the average age of the youngest account in the general population is 2.9 years (as compared to 9.7 months for good accounts and 6 months for bust out), confirming that credit card apps (or at least successful ones) are a pretty rare event in the general population.
@axlm wrote:Thing is, according to that document, utilization is tipically low up to 3 months before the bust-out, and bad checks are used to further the damage once they know they are going to default, not before. In short, people with more cards/inquiries than the average user, poor AAoA with low util and good payment history.
Yup, I still think it sounds like many of us around here.
Upon realizing that I will churn CC bonuses, I read reports such as this to give me an idea what sort of datapoints these algorithms flagging.
Once you have an idea of what behavior they're isolating, some disinformation along the way is usually enough to keep from being flagged. For instance, when churning frequrently, carry some larger than normal 0% balance transfers that report; create more score volatility; charge high amounts one month, and less during others; or, pay in large amounts from a single account; increase and decrease CLs. The key is to never establish a predictable pattern of behavior where algorithms can notice a "relevant deviation." In other words, randomize your behavior with disinformation to render thier algorithms less meaningful and neutralize their predictive value.
In the end, none of this may help, but it's the *only* portion within our control. Or, just don't app, but it goes against my general principle to ever leave an opportunity unexploited.
@Open123 wrote:
@axlm wrote:Thing is, according to that document, utilization is tipically low up to 3 months before the bust-out, and bad checks are used to further the damage once they know they are going to default, not before. In short, people with more cards/inquiries than the average user, poor AAoA with low util and good payment history.
Yup, I still think it sounds like many of us around here.
Upon realizing that I will churn CC bonuses, I read reports such as this to give me an idea what sort of datapoints these algorithms flagging.
Once you have an idea of what behavior they're isolating, some disinformation along the way is usually enough to keep from being flagged. For instance, when churning frequrently, carry some larger than normal 0% balance transfers that report; create more score volatility; charge high amounts one month, and less during others; or, pay in large amounts from a single account; increase and decrease CLs. The key is to never establish a predictable pattern of behavior where algorithms can notice a "relevant deviation." In other words, randomize your behavior with disinformation to render thier algorithms less meaningful and neutralize their predictive value.
In the end, none of this may help, but it's the *only* portion within our control. Or, just don't app, but it goes against my general principle to ever leave an opportunity unexploited.
+1
Great minds think alike... that was my very reason for sharing the link to begin with!
I'm sure they don't outline every little detail in the document, but I, too, feel that reading over items such as this at least gives us a pretty good idea of how the algorithm 'thinks' behind the scenes. I'm sure there are numerous other products from other vendors used by various major lenders - and possibly even some 'in house' solutions - but the basic idea will be the same.
I've actually had "good" behavior by accident (if you call deviating from the data points on the document 'good'). I've been using two 0% promotions since March making payments so that both are paid in full by December, and I've recently done a 0% balance transfer of a family member's account to my Discover and I'm using a deferred interest promo on Care Credit, so I have two accounts reporting each month as if I'm 'revolving', but I'm actually treating them like installment loans while paying no interest.
I was originally timid about allowing a balance of several thousand dollars report for months on end, but honestly my scores haven't dropped but a few points and none of my other lenders seem to have been 'spooked'. I will admit, though, I'll breath a small sigh of relief when everything is PIF once again... old habits die hard! 
@UncleB wrote:I've actually had "good" behavior by accident (if you call deviating from the data points on the document 'good'). I've been using two 0% promotions since March making payments so that both are paid in full by December, and I've recently done a 0% balance transfer of a family member's account to my Discover and I'm using a deferred interest promo on Care Credit, so I have two accounts reporting each month as if I'm 'revolving', but I'm actually treating them like installment loans while paying no interest.
I was originally timid about allowing a balance of several thousand dollars report for months on end, but honestly my scores haven't dropped but a few points and none of my other lenders seem to have been 'spooked'. I will admit, though, I'll breath a small sigh of relief when everything is PIF once again... old habits die hard!
Right, the one component I noticed missing from the usual "strategic default" scenarios is the carrying of significant balances the prior 18 - 24 months before the bust out. Towards that end, I chose Barclays 0% BT checks to carry the balance and hopefully as a hedge vs. the infamous Barclays AA. I've done this with Barclays for 3 consecutive years. During this period, no Barclays AA even in the face of my general bonus harvesting (around 10 - 12 per year), and from Barclays alone, 4 US Air bonuses opened and closed, 3 Arrival Pluses opened and closed, and an NFL bonus for good measure.
*Edited* PS - Also, I ran across a datapoint where most strategic defaults occured with relatively high Fico scores ranging from 750 - 800 and with perfect PIF history. Naturally, I wanted to create a slight deviation from that profile, namely Fico score in the 730 - 750 range and a portion of balance carrying, where I make 2X - 3X the minimum, and a balloon on the final month.