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First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!

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nyancat
Established Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!


@Anonymous wrote:

@chwebb1 wrote:

@nyancat wrote:

@SunriseEarth wrote:

@nyancat wrote:

I'd sooner ditch Costco than Amex. Amex is really increasing their acceptance with small businesses a LOT lately, and in the UK acceptance is skyrocketing (because customers demand it - the rewards are way better due to interchange caps on Visa/MC - and for small business Amex can even be CHEAPER to take than Visa/MC). Costco is a setback, for sure, but my understanding is their terms were rather unreasonable.


I'm in the same boat.   I joined Costco for the specific purpose of getting a TE.   Without that, Sam's Club and their MC is looking appealing.  

 

Hopefully, AMEX retains the Costco portfolio and offers a new product.   if not, I'll probably just move my CL over to BCE next year


Costco will probably become a Mastercard, as Mastercard seems to be the master of retailer relationships like this recently. It would be a huge win for Mastercard, which is rather unpopular in the US compared to other countries. You hear about Discover fighting for this, but I can't imagine it not going to Mastercard. I'd imagine they're likely to also accept contactless as part of the agreement, Costco's terminals support contactless it's just disabled and they are not part of MCX (the anti-contactless merchant coalition). Result? Mastercard exclusive, MAJOR win for Mastercard. Possible wins for Chip and PIN and contactless (most likely contactless), two things Mastercard is promoting (more contactless, but they're not anti-PIN like Visa is). 


Is MasterCard really that unpopular in the US? Because I personally have 4 MC credit cards in my wallet: both of my Barclaycards, my BoA BBR and my Citi DoubleCash. I only have one Visa credit card currently, my BoA Cash Rewards. I figured they were around equal in popularity?


Chase essentially switched from Mastercard to VISA on Freedom and CSP (and I believe other cards as well).  

 

 

AMEX's rewards are nice, but while others aren't to their level (yet!)  they are catching up.  As long as CSP doesn't nerf their rewards (again) they could be the alternative for those who don't like AMEX.  I don't dislike AMEX and I am considering a BCE for future purposes, I just can't see the point in paying a mega-high AF for rewards that other cards offer, and a lounge that I would never use anyway.  Lower that AF to $250, then we'll talk. 


Chase is far from Mastercard's biggest problem, they've been in steady decline in the US. A Costco deal will turn Mastercard around in a way they desperately need to remain the second "major player" in the US. Amex is larger, Discover is growing. MasterCard needs Costco, and Costco is indifferent. That's exactly how Costco likes their credit card partners - desperate and needy. MasterCard is more desperate and needy than Amex right now, as it turns out.

 

Everyday is better than BCE. Everyday gets you MR points that are convertible to Delta SkyMiles. The real value of the rewards used properly is far, far higher than the BCE.

American Express Blue Cash Everyday - $11,000; American Express Platinum Cashback Everyday - £3,000; American Express Rewards Credit Card - £7,500; Aqua Reward Mastercard - £3,500; Bank of America Travel Rewards - $5,000; Barclaycard Freedom Rewards - £3,500; Citi Forward - $5,800; Discover It - $10,000; Halifax Clarity - £1,500; HSBC Platinum with Rewards - $5,000, MBNA Everyday Plus - £3,500
Message 51 of 63
smc733
Valued Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!

After fighting very hard to get "in" with Amex several years ago when I was building my credit from scratch as (at the time) a college student, I can say, they're not worth it.  If I had to do it again, I wouldn't have even bothered.

 

To start, before I list the reasons why I don't think Amex is worth it for the average consumer, I will admit they have benefits for frequent travellers, and MR points can be very valuable if transferred and redeemed in the right way.  If you are not one of these people, and are like me with an upper-middle class income, who travels infrequently, and just likes to live a comfortable life with some cash back and a few protections of a CC, travelling VERY infrequently, there are better cards.

 

1.  Cash back.  Amex is in the dark ages here.  My BCE takes a full extra cycle for rewards to post, and then they can only be redeemed for a statement credit (not even a check), and still in $25 increments.  Nearly everyone allows full redemption now.  You CAN redeem to a $0 balance and get a check, but what a hassle.  On a semi-related note, its the same thing with their online savings, antiquated systems, and slower ACH times than competitors like Ally, Synchrony and Discover.

 

2.  Acceptance.  Sure, they're getting better, but here (Boston metro area), I find I run into enough places where its too annoying to use Amex as a primary spending card.  Why bother with the occasional lack of acceptance, when Visa is taken literally everywhere except the very occasional cash-only small business?  If you're like me and like to use 1 card for all daily spending, Amex's acceptance is just not there.  (Discover is closer, I find, to having ubiquitous acceptance).

 

3.  Benefits.  They are almost completely matched by Visa Signature and World/World Elite Mastercard.  The only exception is the extended warranty, which Amex does in house, and there are numerous anecdotal stories of how Amex is much easier to deal with.  This is probably the ONLY reason I am still a cardholder (that and keeping my MSD), I use this card for large electronics purchases.  If I had to pay an annual fee, this card would be gone faster than you could say its name.

 

4.  Prestige.  Meh, not only do I not care about what people think of my CREDIT CARD, but if anyone is searching for this, the regular revolvers don't have it to the average person (who doesn't know they're harder to get).  You could argue the higher (Gold and above) cards do have some "prestige", but unless you're a traveller, the MR points have a much worse cash value for the typical suburban consumer (.5% if I remember).

 

5.  Customer service.  This one is meh, I get overseas service all the time with Amex, and while they seem better trained than the awful, just terrible service I always get with Citi, I am still unimpressed.  I know some of the AF cards have better domestic service, but with Discover, Barclays and Bank of America (Preferred rewards program), I have never once gotten overseas service, I have always gotten professional, domestic, helpful service.  Amex was pretty good one time calling the EO to get the 10.24% APR, but that's about it.  There is NOTHING here in my experience that sets Amex apart from Chase, BofA, Barclays or Discover.

 

I think I have some more points, but they're not coming to me, I will probably be adding them later.

 

My point here is this, it seems they still are beneficial to travellers and high-spenders.  But the average middle-class consumer would be better suited by higher acceptance, similar benefits, equal service and better rewards with Visa/MC or even Discover products, IMO.

BofA Cash Rewards VS - $25k | Citi Double Cash World MC - $18.9k | Amex BCE - $50k | Discover it - $50k | Chase Freedom Unlimited VS- $10k | Barclay Ring $5k |
Message 52 of 63
taxi818
Super Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!

Sorry o. You're welcome to ditch yours. But mine is a keeper for life. Smiley Happy 

Message 53 of 63
Open123
Super Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!


@smc733 wrote:

To start, before I list the reasons why I don't think Amex is worth it for the average consumer, I will admit they have benefits for frequent travellers, and MR points can be very valuable if transferred and redeemed in the right way.  If you are not one of these people, and are like me with an upper-middle class income, who travels infrequently, and just likes to live a comfortable life with some cash back and a few protections of a CC, travelling VERY infrequently, there are better cards.


+1

 

This is spot on.

 

From a valuation perspective, Amex is worthwhile only when redeeming MR and SPG for travel related purposes; and, even then, it must be redeemed favorably to maximize value.  Redeeming these points in any other fashion greatly reduces the value of these rewards, such as GCs, points purchases, and statement credits (the supreme ripoff).

 

Amex is completely underwhelming for cash rewards.  For cash rewards, I would never use an Amex--the only exception would be the first $6,000 groceries on the BCP.  Their cash redemptions accrue slowly, only allowed in $25 increments, and mostly based on 1% spend.  Right off the top of my head there are a myraid of better options, i.e., Fid Amex 2%, Citi 2% (my favorite no fee cash rewards card), Arrival Plus, Venture, Cash+ etc....

 

For cash rewards, any card listed above is a better value than any Amex.

 

*Edited*  PS - Obviously, for cash, maximize the 5% Freedom/Discover/Citi/US Bank (never spend beyond the $1,500/$2,000 cap) categories before using any other card for base 2%.

Message 54 of 63
mongstradamus
Super Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!


@SunriseEarth wrote:

@nyancat wrote:

I'd sooner ditch Costco than Amex. Amex is really increasing their acceptance with small businesses a LOT lately, and in the UK acceptance is skyrocketing (because customers demand it - the rewards are way better due to interchange caps on Visa/MC - and for small business Amex can even be CHEAPER to take than Visa/MC). Costco is a setback, for sure, but my understanding is their terms were rather unreasonable.


I'm in the same boat.   I joined Costco for the specific purpose of getting a TE.   Without that, Sam's Club and their MC is looking appealing.  

 

Hopefully, AMEX retains the Costco portfolio and offers a new product.   if not, I'll probably just move my CL over to BCE next year


I guess i am in minority but losing amex is an big deal but not that big of an deal to drop costco for . Its kind of an big deal to me how companies treat their employees. In that respect sams club and costco are totally different. 



EX Fico 804 11/16/16 Fako 800 Credit.com 11/16/16
EQ SW bank enhanced 11/16/16 839 CK fako 822 11/16/16
TU Fico discover 10/19/16 814 Fako 819 Creditkarma 11/16/16
Message 55 of 63
Imperfectfuture
Super Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!


@SunriseEarth wrote:

@nyancat wrote:

I'd sooner ditch Costco than Amex. Amex is really increasing their acceptance with small businesses a LOT lately, and in the UK acceptance is skyrocketing (because customers demand it - the rewards are way better due to interchange caps on Visa/MC - and for small business Amex can even be CHEAPER to take than Visa/MC). Costco is a setback, for sure, but my understanding is their terms were rather unreasonable.


I'm in the same boat.   I joined Costco for the specific purpose of getting a TE.   Without that, Sam's Club and their MC is looking appealing.  

 

Hopefully, AMEX retains the Costco portfolio and offers a new product.   if not, I'll probably just move my CL over to BCE next year


That's a good plan.

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Message 56 of 63
Imperfectfuture
Super Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!


@nyancat wrote:

@chwebb1 wrote:

@nyancat wrote:

@SunriseEarth wrote:

@nyancat wrote:

I'd sooner ditch Costco than Amex. Amex is really increasing their acceptance with small businesses a LOT lately, and in the UK acceptance is skyrocketing (because customers demand it - the rewards are way better due to interchange caps on Visa/MC - and for small business Amex can even be CHEAPER to take than Visa/MC). Costco is a setback, for sure, but my understanding is their terms were rather unreasonable.


I'm in the same boat.   I joined Costco for the specific purpose of getting a TE.   Without that, Sam's Club and their MC is looking appealing.  

 

Hopefully, AMEX retains the Costco portfolio and offers a new product.   if not, I'll probably just move my CL over to BCE next year


Costco will probably become a Mastercard, as Mastercard seems to be the master of retailer relationships like this recently. It would be a huge win for Mastercard, which is rather unpopular in the US compared to other countries. You hear about Discover fighting for this, but I can't imagine it not going to Mastercard. I'd imagine they're likely to also accept contactless as part of the agreement, Costco's terminals support contactless it's just disabled and they are not part of MCX (the anti-contactless merchant coalition). Result? Mastercard exclusive, MAJOR win for Mastercard. Possible wins for Chip and PIN and contactless (most likely contactless), two things Mastercard is promoting (more contactless, but they're not anti-PIN like Visa is). 


Is MasterCard really that unpopular in the US? Because I personally have 4 MC credit cards in my wallet: both of my Barclaycards, my BoA BBR and my Citi DoubleCash. I only have one Visa credit card currently, my BoA Cash Rewards. I figured they were around equal in popularity?


Definitely not equal, I'd guess the number of Visa card transactions far exceeds Mastercard transactions. In fact, I'd not only guess. I'd look up statistics:

 

http://www.cardhub.com/edu/market-share-by-credit-card-network/

 

Even Amex has overtaken Mastercard in the US (it's not clear, but that's US data, based on the source being SEC reports).

 

That's BEFORE the great Chase Mastercard dump. Before Costco leaving Amex and Walmart/Sam's joining Mastercard too, of course. Still. The net trend has been away from Mastercard, and they're not doing well in the US. Walmart and Sam's are great, but they don't have the credit card loyalty Costco has.

 

Mastercard will want this deal and will accept some pretty brutal terms to get it, and if they can make it contactless, all the better.


But the issuers are leading the charge, not the networks.  Sorry, Charlie, that's not what they are looking at.  And I've never come across a place that doesn't visa/MasterCard. My utilities, metro service, etc are MasterCard/Visa folks only.  It's the issuers deciding on whom is cheaper, as in Chase making those changes away from MasterCard, while Walmart switches from discover to MasterCard.

 

It's your opinion, but the top issuers are reported by the analysts as Chase, Citi, and Discover.  Expanding swipe fees to millions is not what will keep costs low at Costco, and they know that.  I believe the above logic is flawed, IMHO.

 

ETA: that article is based on old data, and the card companies have loosened up more as competition heats up.  Again, wishful thinking.  I wish it was Discover (and so does Credit Suisse), but that doesn't make it a shoe in,

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Message 57 of 63
Dawggie14
Regular Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!

So if one had either a Costco or Jet Blue card (which I have), and those companies end up with different banking relations, what would happen to our credit accounts with Amex? Do they allow you to transfer your credit lines to another Amex revolver? Can you just product change to another Amex revolver of your choosing? Or do you just (gulp) lose the tradeline and its associated credit limit?

Message 58 of 63
Open123
Super Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!


@Dawggie14 wrote:

So if one had either a Costco or Jet Blue card (which I have), and those companies end up with different banking relations, what would happen to our credit accounts with Amex? Do they allow you to transfer your credit lines to another Amex revolver? Can you just product change to another Amex revolver of your choosing? Or do you just (gulp) lose the tradeline and its associated credit limit?


All things being equal, they'll allow you to product change to a one of their cards.  Even if they don't, you can reapply for a new card with the original membership date, which is often better since you'll receive the sign-up bonus.

Message 59 of 63
Dawggie14
Regular Contributor

Re: First Costco , now jet blue ! Should we ditch amex?!

Would the reapplication involve another hard pull if given that option?

Message 60 of 63
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