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New Contributor
ssdc1980
Posts: 60
Registered: ‎05-03-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver

First off there is no need to apologize for the breaking news, that's the main reason I'm a member (learning from the more experienced). However I didn't get my zync card as a means to guarantee my BCE (or whatever card) approval further down the road, I got it because I wanted an amex card. I read all about the backdating before applying and even though the amex offer that came in the mail was for the gold card I chose to app for the zync because of the lower AF. Either way I'm in there.

 

Despite the denial I'm still feeling good about my rebuilding efforts and look forward to the day when the BCE card and I cross paths. Thanks to everyone for all the help

Regular Contributor
DeadSpider
Posts: 244
Registered: ‎07-29-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver

App again in January you'll get another fico score or both.

Cap1 QS $11500, Freedom $5000K, Slate $8000 Amex Sky $2000K, Discover IT $4400, BCE $8800, NFL $1500, Lowes $7000

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Established Contributor
Cdnewmanpac
Posts: 767
Registered: ‎01-16-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver


HenryJumbo wrote:

ssdc1980 wrote:

I currently have the Zync card


Sorry to break the news to you (and all the others who swear by the Zync card) but having a Zync card only shows that you have the credit profile to... have a Zync card. The primary benefit of having a Zync card is to Trojan horse your way into Amex with unlimited SPs (per 90 days I believe). You STILL need the credit profile to qualify for a revolver and having the Zync card will only help if you are currently building excellent credit with the card. Hell you could just as easily have chosen any other credit card, built up excellent credit and still got a Amex revolver, minus the AF fee. You can easily spend a year with a Zync card and not qualify for a revolver, having a Zync makes no difference.

 

Also people need to open their eyes to the myth of the Amex “relationship”. Amex doesn’t sit there and say, “Bob wants a revolver, he’s credit is average, and his income is low, but hey he’s got a ‘relationship’ with us because he has our lowest rung card, the Zync card, yeah we’ll let Bob get a revolver." NOT!

 

There really needs to be a sticky about the Zync card, because it’s being pushed on these boards like it’s going out of style, but I’ve read countless threads of people getting denied revolvers.

 

The reason you’re “having trouble” is because a Zync doesn’t give you any preference to getting a revolver.

 


You've now posted essentially the same comment in multiple threads. I'm still curious as to the source of your information. How can you possibly know having a charge card has absolutely no effect on the internal scoring system that ultimately decides who receives approval for revolvers?

As I pointed out the last time you posted this type of comment, American Express repeatedly mentions their extensive internal database as a source of their superior credit default rates and the profitability of their credit card segment when speaking to investors. There is also ample evidence that some card users experience increasing benefits and offers for other products after first obtaining a charge card. Is having a Zync card going to make a difference for everybody? Of course not. However, you take that to mean that NOBODY could possibly benefit.

 

American Express has, since its inception, targeted the mass affluent/affluent with spend-centric habits for their products. IF you are one of those people, and IF you have marginal credit for their revolving products, there is at least some evidence that having a charge card raises your internal score, thus making you more likely to qualify for subsequent cards. There is also ample evidence, namely the targeted offers that many cardholders receive (check out flyertalk, where a greater percentage of those customers post), that you can "build a relationship" with Amex. Heck, just look at the people who started with an internal limit of a few thousand and have watched that expand to 10 times that amount. Is this not evidence of relationship building?

 

Is it going to make a difference for people with low income and low spending habits? Probably not. But IF you have a higher income and spend a lot on your cards each month, but have an ex score in the 680-720 range and have been declined for a revolver, why NOT try a Zync (or a PRG or a Platinum, if those fit your spending habits better)?

 

I don't expect to convince you. You've clearly made up your mind. But for those who haven't, I think it is worth considering that a zync costs $25/year or so. A fraction of what most of the people spend on things like CMSs. Is it really that absurd to recommend that people with good income, but marginal credit who want an Amex revolver consider a zync as a potential way to increase your chances?

In wallet: Ink Plus 10k, AMEX TE 25k. In bag: CSP 16k, USAA WMC 15k, Hyatt 13k, United MPE 12k, AMEX HHonors 3k. In SD: Cap 1 QS 5k, Discover IT 7k. FICO 08 says my EQ is now 844, was 510 in 2010.
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Valued Contributor
improvingmycredit
Posts: 1,384
Registered: ‎07-12-2011

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver

+1

 

I'm also incline to agree that having a relationship with Amex does count for something within their internal factoring 

model though I have no emperical evidence of this.  (only circumstantial evidence). BTW- OP- let us know the reasons for denial.  I'm interested for posterities sake and future advice.  :smileyhappy:. I wish you the best of luck on your Amex journey.


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Regular Contributor
HenryJumbo
Posts: 136
Registered: ‎07-21-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver

@ssdc1980

 

I didn’t mean to sound off on you. Like you I am learning and as long as you are willing to learn you will get your BCE in time. So didn’t mean it as an attack on you, I’m just against the current trend.

 

@Cdnewmanpac

 

My source is the many threads on myfico of guys and gals complaining of getting rejected for a revolver, and one of the most popular reasons they feel they should get a revolver is because they have a Zync.

 

This is the problem I have, a guy (or gal) comes on myfico and wants an Amex card, they do a little reading and it’s not long before they set their eyes on the much touted Zync card.

 

They usually have below average credit scores (726 I believe in the national average), yet a lot of the advice is quick to recommend the Zync card because you don’t really need a high score to get one. So this person with a 620 or so FICO applies for a Zync with their minds set on getting a BC. So some wait 6 months, others a year, not knowing getting a revolver has little to do with how nicely you play with your Zync, mainly it’s the increase in FICO of breaking in a new TL.

 

Does the relationship with Amex help? Maybe, minimal if anything and the backdating perk is great, but only if you spree and get the cards you want around the same time in order have all new accounts opened around the same time period. Opening a new card every other month would make backdating moot, as the AAoA will go down with each new card. Remember for the vast majority of users Amex is a second card and is hardly ever the oldest in your wallet (unless you close your beginner cards).

 

So what do we tell the bad FICO score person, “open a Zync this way you’re in”, they do, their score drops for getting a new card, and the AAoA goes down. Now that 620 can be as low as 600, this person thinks they got a shot at a revolver is 6 months. It’s not happening.

 

The hard true is this, whether or not you want a Zync is up to you, but if you have a below average FICO WAIT until you have a high enough score to either, spree and get a bunch of cards you want or wait even longer and get the BC and spree for better prime cards. Dropping a sub FICO with a new card (Zync or whatever) and decreasing your AAoA is a terrible idea, especially if you hope to get a revolver down the road.  

 

 

Starting Score: EX: 736 FAKO | TU: 757 FICO | EQ 730 FICO
Current Score: EX: 736 FAKO | TU: 750 FICO | EQ 730 FICO
Goal Score:     EX: 750 FICO | TU: 750 FICO | EQ: 750 FICO
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Frequent Contributor
jd5189
Posts: 470
Registered: ‎08-14-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver


improvingmycredit wrote:

+1

 

I'm also incline to agree that having a relationship with Amex does count for something within their internal factoring 

model though I have no emperical evidence of this.  (only circumstantial evidence). BTW- OP- let us know the reasons for denial.  I'm interested for posterities sake and future advice.  :smileyhappy:. I wish you the best of luck on your Amex journey.


I have to agree your internal score has an immense impact your your BCE/BCP..... especially if you are on the border of approved/not approved.

I think I would make a prime example. My EX Fico at the time of my BCE approval was 687... yes very much on the low end of approval scores for this card. Even more, the internal score has quite a bit to do with your initial credit line... once again look at my initial CL $7,500. At the time of approval I had no revolvers on my credit report - they had nothing to base their initial CL on other than my internal score/spend history on my Zync (roughly $2.5k per month).

In my case, had I not had the Zync, I could almost guarantee you I would have not been approved. 

In my wallet: Amex PRG & Zync, Amex BCE (19.2k), Chase Freedom (5k), PSECU Visa/PSL (20k)
Current Scores: Equifax: 738 (Fako) TransUnion: 721 (Fico) Experian: 717 (Fico)
Disclaimer: I am by no means a financial advisor. My posts are based on opinion, experience, and/or knowledge.
Regular Contributor
CK_Charles_Lover
Posts: 248
Registered: ‎09-02-2011

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver


HenryJumbo wrote:

ssdc1980 wrote:

I currently have the Zync card


Sorry to break the news to you (and all the others who swear by the Zync card) but having a Zync card only shows that you have the credit profile to... have a Zync card. The primary benefit of having a Zync card is to Trojan horse your way into Amex with unlimited SPs (per 90 days I believe). You STILL need the credit profile to qualify for a revolver and having the Zync card will only help if you are currently building excellent credit with the card. Hell you could just as easily have chosen any other credit card, built up excellent credit and still got a Amex revolver, minus the AF fee. You can easily spend a year with a Zync card and not qualify for a revolver, having a Zync makes no difference.

 

Also people need to open their eyes to the myth of the Amex “relationship”. Amex doesn’t sit there and say, “Bob wants a revolver, he’s credit is average, and his income is low, but hey he’s got a ‘relationship’ with us because he has our lowest rung card, the Zync card, yeah we’ll let Bob get a revolver." NOT!

 

There really needs to be a sticky about the Zync card, because it’s being pushed on these boards like it’s going out of style, but I’ve read countless threads of people getting denied revolvers.

 

The reason you’re “having trouble” is because a Zync doesn’t give you any preference to getting a revolver.

 


Yes, I also disagree. I'm 100% sure having the zync (aka a relationship with amex) helped me. I had the zync for 11 months in may. I applied on the phone instantly approved for the PRG card, using my Zync account number information for the app. Called 2 weeks later applied BCE. She said would you like to use one of your cards info to apply again I said yes. She said WHICH card? I said I don't know, I know the PRG is a better card but I've had the zync almost a year now. She said "I SUGGEST USING THE ZYNC, it shows you have had a longer RELATIONSHIP with us, and gives us more info to use to determine approval and spending limits and such". I said ok use zync and APPROVED BCE $8,000. Biggest limit at the time was $5,000. Cut to 61 days later CLI $19,500. My experian in the letter they sent me was 710 fico score. What else other then my RELATIONSHIP with them and the zync card would qualify me for all the AMEX luv. Nothing I'm sure. 

Trans Union Fico (Walmart) ,690 Experian Fico (Amex) 686(Opened 3 new accounts this month. In the Garden)


AMEX BCE ($19,500) AMEX PRG -(NPSL), BARCLAYS US AIR PREMIER WORLD ($10,000), BOA CASH REWARD -($6,000), CITI HILTON RESERVE SIGGY-(5,000), WALMART DISCOVER ( $5,800), CITI DIAMOND ($4,700), CITI DIVIDED WORLD ($4,500), AMAZON STORE($5,000), NORDSTROM VISA SIG($5,000), PAYPAL STORE ($4,000) Amex Delta Gold ($2000)
Valued Contributor
CreditScholar
Posts: 2,300
Registered: ‎01-22-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver

There are some merits to both sides of this argument.

 

 

1.Backdating is a uniquely Amex concept and for many people can be quite valuable. Any Amex card will do this, so it will help people with borderline credit scores. I wish they'd do away with this, but it's their perogative.

 

2. SPs for future applications is a nice benefit, but if your credit is marginal and you're risking possible denials, you shouldn't be applying that often anyways. It matters a bit but not as much as people think.

 

3. Amex does rely heavily on its own internal scoring system, perhaps even moreso than traditional credit reports once you have enough of a history with them. Once someone has an Amex, even if it is a Zync, this starts to factor in to how they decide future applications.

 

4. Regardless of 1-3 above, you still need to fit Amex's target customer profile. Henry is spot-on when he said that there are too many people who think that once they have  Zync they're in as long as they "do their time". This is simply not true. The bottom line is if you don't fit what they're looking for (high income, constant moderate-heavy usage), you won't see any substantial benefit. Their internal scoring model will identify you as a low spender, and therefore you will be much less likely to receive large CLIs, additional cards, etc.

 

5. Income is a huge determining factor with Amex, perhaps even moreso than other lenders given their spend-centic model. Their reasoning is that without sufficient income, you won't have any money to spend on their cards. As a company who has traditionally courted the affluent, lousy income (by Amex's standards is probably below 50-60k) may do you more harm than good than in the long-run. To average 2k a month on an Amex card, which I think starts to enter the realm of reasonability for them, means they'd have to push 50% of their income through their Amex card and they haven't even paid taxes on that 50k yet. What they're really after is people with 80-100k or above.

 

I read a post yesterday about someone who couldn't understand why he didn't get 3x CLI after having his card for 61 days and only charging $180 on it. Really? Is he serious? If someone isn't using a decent part of their CL as it is, why would they even think about giving you 3x that?

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Senior Contributor
Open123
Posts: 3,969
Registered: ‎02-23-2011

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver

In the case of the Zync, it really is a double edged sword.

 

Take several different spending profiles.

 

A.  Cardmember charges approximately $1,500 - $2,000 per month on fine dining, tickets to exclusive shows, some travel related expenses at fine hotels, and sprinkled with some luxury spending here and there at Neiman Marcus.  Moreover, the cardmember pays in full a few days after the statement cuts, and always in its entirety in one ful payment.

 

B.  Cardmember charges approximately $1,500 - $2,000 per month all on amazon payments, service, or other cash advance type of spending, such as supermarket gift cards.  Payments are in full by the due date, but always in multiple smaller amounts from many different accounts.  Never spends on the type of "luxury" goods on which Amex uses to justify the higher fee to these merchants.

 

C.  Cardmember charges $125 per month on groceries, netflix, and MetroPcs payment cards.

 

From Amex's point of view, though cardmember B spends as much as cardmember A, the former rather than bolster Amex's market position would tend to diminish it. If Amex can no longer justify higher merchant fees because it attracts the more "luxury" good spenders, they'll be out of business within 5 years.  Amex's entire position with merchants is their ability to leverage the fact their cardmembers not only spend more, but spend on "luxury" goods.  Amex not only cares about how much is spent, but also what it is spent on.  No issuer cares more about a "transacational" score than Amex.

 

Cardmember A's Zync spending will help considerably, even if Fico scores aren't all that impressive.  

 

For cardmember B, they'd be at best neutral, and at worst, tag for future FR.  

 

Cardmember C will never be approved for any kind of revolver (even if approved, will have Amex's infamously lowest CL of $1,000), and will always have an abysmally low NPSL.  Matter of fact, after 6 months of $125, the next $1,000 charge Cardmember C makes might get declined.

 

 

Valued Contributor
CreditScholar
Posts: 2,300
Registered: ‎01-22-2012

Re: Having trouble applying for AMEX revolver


Open123 wrote:

In the case of the Zync, it really is a double edged sword.

 

Take several different spending profiles.

 

A.  Cardmember charges approximately $1,500 - $2,000 per month on fine dining, tickets to exclusive shows, some travel related expenses at fine hotels, and sprinkled with some luxury spending here and there at Neiman Marcus.  Moreover, the cardmember pays in full a few days after the statement cuts, and always in its entirety in one ful payment.

 

B.  Cardmember charges approximately $1,500 - $2,000 per month all on amazon payments, service, or other cash advance type of spending, such as supermarket gift cards.  Payments are in full by the due date, but always in multiple smaller amounts from many different accounts.  Never spends on the type of "luxury" goods on which Amex uses to justify the higher fee to these merchants.

 

C.  Cardmember charges $125 per month on groceries, netflix, and MetroPcs payment cards.

 

From Amex's point of view, though cardmember B spends as much as cardmember A, the former rather than bolster Amex's market position would tend to diminish it. If Amex can no longer justify higher merchant fees because it attracts the more "luxury" good spenders, they'll be out of business within 5 years.  Amex's entire position with merchants is their ability to leverage the fact their cardmembers not only spend more, but spend on "luxury" goods.  Amex not only cares about how much is spent, but also what it is spent on.  No issuer cares more about a "transacational" score than Amex.

 

Cardmember A's Zync spending will help considerably, even if Fico scores aren't all that impressive.  

 

For cardmember B, they'd be at best neutral, and at worst, tag for future FR.  

 

Cardmember C will never be approved for any kind of revolver (even if approved, will have Amex's infamously lowest CL of $1,000), and will always have an abysmally low NPSL.  Matter of fact, after 6 months of $125, the next $1,000 charge Cardmember C makes might get declined.

 

 


+1.

 

FICOs: EX: 826, EQ: 817, TU: 810
Bank of America Privileges with Travel Rewards Visa Signature - $23,200 CL
Chase Sapphire Preferred Visa Signature - $12,700 CL
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J.P. Morgan Ritz Carlton Visa Signature - $23,500 CL

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