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How much do current limits impact limits on new cards

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards

I was going to start my own thread to outline how some of this stuff works--at least for one fairly conservative Canadian bank--but this seems like a good place to do it. 

 

Before I start, I will say that the anecdotal evidence on this board seems to indicate that most major US banks have far more liberal underwriting policies than their Canadian counterparts. Canadian banks are highly regulated by the federal government, and I suspect that much of their conservatism is regulated into existence by that government. The information I am providing below is specific to the one Canadian bank where I worked, but it is my understanding that it's pretty typical of the Canadian banking system at large. It is also likely that some US banks have similar lending policies, though not necessarily. Extrapolate at your own risk!

 

To start, Canadian banks ask for your gross monthly income, just like any other bank. They also ask for your monthly rent or mortgage obligations and possibly utilities as well (depending on the application type). The rule for mortgage applications is that only a certain percentage of your gross income is allowed to go towards debt servicing. I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was either 35 or 40% or so. It may have been as high as 45%. My job wasn't specifically in this area, though I did sit in on a few meetings where these issues were discussed. I therefore got a pretty good sense of how it worked overall, but I don't necessarily remember every detail. For arguments sake, I will use the 40% number.

 

So, if a customer makes $70,000 per year gross, we would divide that by 12 months to get $5,833 per month gross income. Of this amount, 40% is allowed to go to debt servicing, so $2333.20. I'm not entirely sure if this amount includes the mortgage payments or if it is kept separate from the mortgage you are applying for, but I do know that it's much more difficult to get approved for unsecured credit in Canada than for mortgages. LOCs are extremely difficult to obtain as the bank has only one revenue stream from a LOC (i.e., interest payments and no merchant/swipe fees as with CCs). The interest rates are usually much lower too, so banks are reluctant to give them out except to those with top notch credit and solid income. Also keep in mind that most mortgage applications these days (or at least many) are from couples with two incomes, so something north of $100K/year combined is not all that unusual. 

 

Now here's the interesting part... If a customer has $100,000 in total available credit across all credit cards, LOCs, auto loans, whatever, then the bank uses this number to calculate their monthly debt obligations regardless of whether the customer is carrying a balance or not. Since in Canada most credit cards etc. require either a 2% or 3% minimum monthly payment on the outstanding balance, the bank that I worked for used the higher number (3%) and would multiply that number by the $100,000 in total limits to determine your monthly debt servicing obligation.

 

This means that the above customer would have $3,000 in debt obligations per month and only $2333.20 available for servicing their debt, even if they never used their CCs at all. I am sure that this will come as a huge surprise to many! In such a case, the bank would not approve the customer's mortgage application without the customer meeting certain conditions (i.e., closing some of their other credit products or increasing their income such that the total monthly debt obligation becomes lower than the total monthly income available for debt servicing).

 

Also, in Canada it is practically unheard of for someone to have total credit card limits in excess of their gross annual income--a practice that is certainly not advisable!! When including mortgages and auto loans, this no longer remains true. Many mortgages alone are higher than the person's annual income. 

 

As an adviser myself, I always suggested that customers limit their total unsecured (i.e., CC & LOC) limits to a number somewhere in the range of 1/2 to 2/3 of their total gross annual income, and this was at the upper end of advisable limits. So, if you make $60K per year, then you are relatively safe with $30-$40K in total CC & LOC limits, though you would be ill advised to run those limits up!

 

A good rule of thumb for someone making $60K/year might be to have one $10,000 LOC, two $5,000 credit cards, and a few $1-2K cards totaling between $10 & $20K.

 

Also, I personally prefer to spread my available credit across 8 or 10 accounts at any given time. For extremely high income earners, I would suggest having your higher limits on your LOCs rather than your CCs. In general, two revolving accounts of $5,000 or more with at least two years of clean history each is enough to get you approved for a mortgage or a high end CC as long as there is nothing negative in your credit history (and meet the minimum income requirement for an Infinite VISA or World Elite MC).

 

Also, in Canada it's the history that is important. FICO scores are used, as are other scoring models, but your reported credit history trumps FICO by a landslide. FICO is significantly overvalued in this forum as well (for obvious reasons). Internal rating systems within the banks are also much more important than FICOs if you are an existing customer. FICOs are mostly important for instant CC approvals. If the computer is sufficiently impressed, you may be approved. For the most part this is not true in Canada, where many banks don't even have an instant approval system. Manual review of your app. and credit file is pretty standard here.

 

When people apply for credit cards, the total debt servicing percentage may or may not come into effect--I'm not quite sure. It likely is in effect, only with a lower allowable percentage as the credit is unsecured. However, the bank is never going to approve any kind of a credit product that causes a customer to become overextended. If the 3% minimum payment on a card approval will cause your debt obligations to exceed your monthly resources for paying it back, the app. will certainly be denied. And the rule about counting total available limits as debt obligations whether or not they are being utilized is absolute! There's no getting around that one! 

 

Finally, there is always the possibility of exceptions, though they are very rare and may require having a branch manager friend to pull some strings for you.

 

I hope that some of this info proves useful to everyone!

 

G

Message 21 of 39
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards


@Anonymous wrote:

I was going to start my own thread to outline how some of this stuff works--at least for one fairly conservative Canadian bank--but this seems like a good place to do it. 

 

Before I start, I will say that the anecdotal evidence on this board seems to indicate that most major US banks have far more liberal underwriting policies than their Canadian counterparts. Canadian banks are highly regulated by the federal government, and I suspect that much of their conservatism is regulated into existence by that government. The information I am providing below is specific to the one Canadian bank where I worked, but it is my understanding that it's pretty typical of the Canadian banking system at large. It is also likely that some US banks have similar lending policies, though not necessarily. Extrapolate at your own risk!

 

To start, Canadian banks ask for your gross monthly income, just like any other bank. They also ask for your monthly rent or mortgage obligations and possibly utilities as well (depending on the application type). The rule for mortgage applications is that only a certain percentage of your gross income is allowed to go towards debt servicing. I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was either 35 or 40% or so. It may have been as high as 45%. My job wasn't specifically in this area, though I did sit in on a few meetings where these issues were discussed. I therefore got a pretty good sense of how it worked overall, but I don't necessarily remember every detail. For arguments sake, I will use the 40% number.

 

So, if a customer makes $70,000 per year gross, we would divide that by 12 months to get $5,833 per month gross income. Of this amount, 40% is allowed to go to debt servicing, so $2333.20. I'm not entirely sure if this amount includes the mortgage payments or if it is kept separate from the mortgage you are applying for, but I do know that it's much more difficult to get approved for unsecured credit in Canada than for mortgages. LOCs are extremely difficult to obtain as the bank has only one revenue stream from a LOC (i.e., interest payments and no merchant/swipe fees as with CCs). The interest rates are usually much lower too, so banks are reluctant to give them out except to those with top notch credit and solid income. Also keep in mind that most mortgage applications these days (or at least many) are from couples with two incomes, so something north of $100K/year combined is not all that unusual. 

 

Now here's the interesting part... If a customer has $100,000 in total available credit across all credit cards, LOCs, auto loans, whatever, then the bank uses this number to calculate their monthly debt obligations regardless of whether the customer is carrying a balance or not. Since in Canada most credit cards etc. require either a 2% or 3% minimum monthly payment on the outstanding balance, the bank that I worked for used the higher number (3%) and would multiply that number by the $100,000 in total limits to determine your monthly debt servicing obligation.

 

This means that the above customer would have $3,000 in debt obligations per month and only $2333.20 available for servicing their debt, even if they never used their CCs at all. I am sure that this will come as a huge surprise to many! In such a case, the bank would not approve the customer's mortgage application without the customer meeting certain conditions (i.e., closing some of their other credit products or increasing their income such that the total monthly debt obligation becomes lower than the total monthly income available for debt servicing).

 

Also, in Canada it is practically unheard of for someone to have total credit card limits in excess of their gross annual income--a practice that is certainly not advisable!! When including mortgages and auto loans, this no longer remains true. Many mortgages alone are higher than the person's annual income. 

 

As an adviser myself, I always suggested that customers limit their total unsecured (i.e., CC & LOC) limits to a number somewhere in the range of 1/2 to 2/3 of their total gross annual income, and this was at the upper end of advisable limits. So, if you make $60K per year, then you are relatively safe with $30-$40K in total CC & LOC limits, though you would be ill advised to run those limits up!

 

A good rule of thumb for someone making $60K/year might be to have one $10,000 LOC, two $5,000 credit cards, and a few $1-2K cards totaling between $10 & $20K.

 

Also, I personally prefer to spread my available credit across 8 or 10 accounts at any given time. For extremely high income earners, I would suggest having your higher limits on your LOCs rather than your CCs. In general, two revolving accounts of $5,000 or more with at least two years of clean history each is enough to get you approved for a mortgage or a high end CC as long as there is nothing negative in your credit history (and meet the minimum income requirement for an Infinite VISA or World Elite MC).

 

Also, in Canada it's the history that is important. FICO scores are used, as are other scoring models, but your reported credit history trumps FICO by a landslide. FICO is significantly overvalued in this forum as well (for obvious reasons). Internal rating systems within the banks are also much more important than FICOs if you are an existing customer. FICOs are mostly important for instant CC approvals. If the computer is sufficiently impressed, you may be approved. For the most part this is not true in Canada, where many banks don't even have an instant approval system. Manual review of your app. and credit file is pretty standard here.

 

When people apply for credit cards, the total debt servicing percentage may or may not come into effect--I'm not quite sure. It likely is in effect, only with a lower allowable percentage as the credit is unsecured. However, the bank is never going to approve any kind of a credit product that causes a customer to become overextended. If the 3% minimum payment on a card approval will cause your debt obligations to exceed your monthly resources for paying it back, the app. will certainly be denied. And the rule about counting total available limits as debt obligations whether or not they are being utilized is absolute! There's no getting around that one! 

 

Finally, there is always the possibility of exceptions, though they are very rare and may require having a branch manager friend to pull some strings for you.

 

I hope that some of this info proves useful to everyone!

 

G


Sounds restrictive.

Message 22 of 39
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards

@Chris679 wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

@red259 wrote:

Do the limits on cards you have with lenders impact your limits when you app for new cards with a different lender (assuming lenders don't feel you have too much credit)? I know sometimes it feels that way, but didn't know if there was any real basis for this feeling. 


There are few banks out there that will match your highest CL. I will name one of them which is Barclay.


Amex did this when I opened ED card in April 2014.  My highest limit was $12200 and that is exactly what they started me with.  Pretty hard to argue that it was just a coincidence. 


I just realized that Amex split the difference between what my 2 cards were reporting as CLs when I apped for the BCE. Barclay's gave me my highest limit when I apped for the SM the next day.

 

Message 23 of 39
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards


@longtimelurker wrote:

I am one of those very much disbelieving in "matching" and "high limits begat high limits".   Basically, for every match story there are counter examples.  So in this thread Barclays was named confidently as matcher, and several others posted otherwise.   In my case, Barclays is my lowest limit, 1/10 of my highest limit at the time, and less than 1/2 of my next lowest limit.

 

As for higher limits.getting higher limits, I still believe that this is misinterpreting cause and effect.    Basically, when you get a high limit from a "normal" bank (i.e. not those who give large CLs to anyone who might have had a pulse) it's because your CR is good enough.   And when the next issuer looks at it, hey, it's still good, and they give you a similar limit.  And with a large sample, sometimes identical, but often not.     And, when issuers have different evaluation criteria, there won't be anything like a match, obviously Barclays was concerned I had too much available credit so gave me a small line.

 

And: it would be pretty irresponsible for a UW to match another bank, at least not without full consideration of their own banks standards and rules.   The fact that Wells Fargo gave you $10K shouldn't influence my judgement as to what an appropriate limit should be, especially if that limit was from a while ago.   Of course, there is also some pressure (although Barclays didn't feel it with me!) not to go too low in comparison with others, so that the card will get used.


I'm on this 100% of the way. 

Message 24 of 39
DiabolicallyRandom
Established Contributor

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards

My limits have been a bit all over the place.  I cant say that any of them have been influenced by other lenders.

Message 25 of 39
lg8302ch
Senior Contributor

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards


@Anonymous wrote:

@red259 wrote:

Do the limits on cards you have with lenders impact your limits when you app for new cards with a different lender (assuming lenders don't feel you have too much credit)? I know sometimes it feels that way, but didn't know if there was any real basis for this feeling. 


There are few banks out there that will match your highest CL. I will name one of them which is Barclay.


Barclays gave me twice about the average CL.....and yes I also have the feeling once you have reached a certain CL on other cards new cards will follow Smiley Happy...thank you Citi Smiley Happy they were that magic card that got future cards influenced.

Message 26 of 39
lg8302ch
Senior Contributor

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards


@TruBlu wrote:
Interesting discussion. How does Citi feel about matching other lenders high limits?

They gave me 17K when my other cards were 5K only Smiley Happy

Message 27 of 39
lg8302ch
Senior Contributor

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards


@Anonymous wrote:

I was going to start my own thread to outline how some of this stuff works--at least for one fairly conservative Canadian bank--but this seems like a good place to do it. 

 

Before I start, I will say that the anecdotal evidence on this board seems to indicate that most major US banks have far more liberal underwriting policies than their Canadian counterparts. Canadian banks are highly regulated by the federal government, and I suspect that much of their conservatism is regulated into existence by that government. The information I am providing below is specific to the one Canadian bank where I worked, but it is my understanding that it's pretty typical of the Canadian banking system at large. It is also likely that some US banks have similar lending policies, though not necessarily. Extrapolate at your own risk!

 

To start, Canadian banks ask for your gross monthly income, just like any other bank. They also ask for your monthly rent or mortgage obligations and possibly utilities as well (depending on the application type). The rule for mortgage applications is that only a certain percentage of your gross income is allowed to go towards debt servicing. I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was either 35 or 40% or so. It may have been as high as 45%. My job wasn't specifically in this area, though I did sit in on a few meetings where these issues were discussed. I therefore got a pretty good sense of how it worked overall, but I don't necessarily remember every detail. For arguments sake, I will use the 40% number.

 

So, if a customer makes $70,000 per year gross, we would divide that by 12 months to get $5,833 per month gross income. Of this amount, 40% is allowed to go to debt servicing, so $2333.20. I'm not entirely sure if this amount includes the mortgage payments or if it is kept separate from the mortgage you are applying for, but I do know that it's much more difficult to get approved for unsecured credit in Canada than for mortgages. LOCs are extremely difficult to obtain as the bank has only one revenue stream from a LOC (i.e., interest payments and no merchant/swipe fees as with CCs). The interest rates are usually much lower too, so banks are reluctant to give them out except to those with top notch credit and solid income. Also keep in mind that most mortgage applications these days (or at least many) are from couples with two incomes, so something north of $100K/year combined is not all that unusual. 

 

Now here's the interesting part... If a customer has $100,000 in total available credit across all credit cards, LOCs, auto loans, whatever, then the bank uses this number to calculate their monthly debt obligations regardless of whether the customer is carrying a balance or not. Since in Canada most credit cards etc. require either a 2% or 3% minimum monthly payment on the outstanding balance, the bank that I worked for used the higher number (3%) and would multiply that number by the $100,000 in total limits to determine your monthly debt servicing obligation.

 

This means that the above customer would have $3,000 in debt obligations per month and only $2333.20 available for servicing their debt, even if they never used their CCs at all. I am sure that this will come as a huge surprise to many! In such a case, the bank would not approve the customer's mortgage application without the customer meeting certain conditions (i.e., closing some of their other credit products or increasing their income such that the total monthly debt obligation becomes lower than the total monthly income available for debt servicing).

 

Also, in Canada it is practically unheard of for someone to have total credit card limits in excess of their gross annual income--a practice that is certainly not advisable!! When including mortgages and auto loans, this no longer remains true. Many mortgages alone are higher than the person's annual income. 

 

As an adviser myself, I always suggested that customers limit their total unsecured (i.e., CC & LOC) limits to a number somewhere in the range of 1/2 to 2/3 of their total gross annual income, and this was at the upper end of advisable limits. So, if you make $60K per year, then you are relatively safe with $30-$40K in total CC & LOC limits, though you would be ill advised to run those limits up!

 

A good rule of thumb for someone making $60K/year might be to have one $10,000 LOC, two $5,000 credit cards, and a few $1-2K cards totaling between $10 & $20K.

 

Also, I personally prefer to spread my available credit across 8 or 10 accounts at any given time. For extremely high income earners, I would suggest having your higher limits on your LOCs rather than your CCs. In general, two revolving accounts of $5,000 or more with at least two years of clean history each is enough to get you approved for a mortgage or a high end CC as long as there is nothing negative in your credit history (and meet the minimum income requirement for an Infinite VISA or World Elite MC).

 

Also, in Canada it's the history that is important. FICO scores are used, as are other scoring models, but your reported credit history trumps FICO by a landslide. FICO is significantly overvalued in this forum as well (for obvious reasons). Internal rating systems within the banks are also much more important than FICOs if you are an existing customer. FICOs are mostly important for instant CC approvals. If the computer is sufficiently impressed, you may be approved. For the most part this is not true in Canada, where many banks don't even have an instant approval system. Manual review of your app. and credit file is pretty standard here.

 

When people apply for credit cards, the total debt servicing percentage may or may not come into effect--I'm not quite sure. It likely is in effect, only with a lower allowable percentage as the credit is unsecured. However, the bank is never going to approve any kind of a credit product that causes a customer to become overextended. If the 3% minimum payment on a card approval will cause your debt obligations to exceed your monthly resources for paying it back, the app. will certainly be denied. And the rule about counting total available limits as debt obligations whether or not they are being utilized is absolute! There's no getting around that one! 

 

Finally, there is always the possibility of exceptions, though they are very rare and may require having a branch manager friend to pull some strings for you.

 

I hope that some of this info proves useful to everyone!

 

G


Pretty similar in Europe. There is no way to get even close to your annual income with your total CLs. Lenders simply will not approve anymore or ask to close card or reduce limits. There is also not that scoring system and only negative items will get reported. So a clean report means good to go but the approval limit is based on income and obligations. There is no way that in Germany or Switzerland I could have the annual income in credit and in the US it gets even over 2 x the annual income. This is  in my opinion is very unhealthy therefore the many BKs in the US.

Message 28 of 39
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards

Your credit limit is decided by a computer . I doubt the computer is programmed to match other limits on your report . Maybe in a manual review its possible .
Message 29 of 39
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: How much do current limits impact limits on new cards

Yes, it is restrictive. On the other hand, it helps prevent some folks from getting in over their head--though not always.

 

G

Message 30 of 39
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