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I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened

Valued Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened

Churning is the best. Makes great travel butter.
Shortcuts to credit lead to shortcut results.
Message 31 of 199
Senior Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


Greenapple13 wrote:



ahhh

 

i hope that wasn't in reference to me jfriend33, but if it is that wasn't my intention.

 

i tried advocating for the person who i think essentially has been 'blacklisted' that way but was told that there is nothing they're going to do..its their right..kind of like the slogan we 'reserve the right to refuse business'. 

 

anyways, the rep said that by closing the card before the year is up, and only using it to get the bonus, essentially its $400 that they're just 'giving' away without anything (or near anything) in return.

 

if there are the rules, there are the rules.

 

than there are the creative ones that make the rule makers reevaluate the rules.


No, it was not directed at any particular person.

 

I guess maybe I jumped the gun with my rant and mis-spoke.  See, when I think of churning, I think of it as adding new cards mostly for the bonus but not just that.  I don't think of churning as setting out this big old plan on how bad I can **bleep** Amex into more MR points by reapplying for stuff later.

 

I don't understand why reapplying is even being mentioned with regards to churning here because its becoming increasingly more difficult in which to do so.  So what I am getting at is, Churning itself is evolving.

 

And besides... I cant even count on my fingers and toes the number of people (friends family etc) that I have been able to get a nice bonus on a card, or begin thinking about addressing any credit issues so they are able to do it. Not just anyone can churn.  In fact, one could argue churning is the catalyst for many folks to change their credit for the better which is 1000% myfico forum topic appropriate.

 

I don't think I have ever read here, topic, reply, private message, or otherwise, someones specific scheme to repeatedly go for the same card bonus.  Most of what I read here and discuss are new or existing offers, rentention promos, etc.

 

I apologize if I overreacted I was just befuddled when I read "Churning is not to be discussed on myfico". My mind instantly thinks...ok, churning is another level in the game play of credit. How in the heck is that any different than adding an AU, pushing limits on the discover train, manipulating comenity bank phone system, etc. These are all shortcuts.  They cause equal damage to the lendors.  And yeah, the consequences of people that abuse any shortcut definitely cause grief later on to the traditional game players.  That is just how life goes though. I would be upset with the lendors that allow these nontraditional things to happen.

 

Ok so we can't talk about MS, thats fine with me. But we can share our past experiences with certain bonuses or general tactics, helping others take advantage of combining credit pulls...we just cant say, oh hey you have this card, you should do xyz to get the bonus again in xmonths.

 

quoting cuz its impossible to multiquote here:

"Adding: What is taboo in regards to churning is the advocation of such practices. What usually happens in a churning thread is it turns into an advocation of MS and that is the big taboo on myFico. So be sure to maintain your discussions keeping in mind where the line is."

 

I am fine with this 100%. Its the act of grabbing a card, running it through this, to get that, instead of actually using it. Fine with me, I will never do that. Wish I had fewer bills to pay and a need to do that LOL.

EQ 730, TU 730, EX 720. INQs EQ-1, TU-9, EX-7 AAOA 4yrs Util 6% Inspiration: Themanwhocan's Cash Back Charts
Message 32 of 199
Super Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


jfriend33 wrote:

Greenapple13 wrote:



ahhh

 

i hope that wasn't in reference to me jfriend33, but if it is that wasn't my intention.

 

i tried advocating for the person who i think essentially has been 'blacklisted' that way but was told that there is nothing they're going to do..its their right..kind of like the slogan we 'reserve the right to refuse business'. 

 

anyways, the rep said that by closing the card before the year is up, and only using it to get the bonus, essentially its $400 that they're just 'giving' away without anything (or near anything) in return.

 

if there are the rules, there are the rules.

 

than there are the creative ones that make the rule makers reevaluate the rules.


No, it was not directed at any particular person.

 

I guess maybe I jumped the gun with my rant and mis-spoke.  See, when I think of churning, I think of it as adding new cards mostly for the bonus but not just that.  I don't think of churning as setting out this big old plan on how bad I can **bleep** Amex into more MR points by reapplying for stuff later.

 

I don't understand why reapplying is even being mentioned with regards to churning here because its becoming increasingly more difficult in which to do so.  So what I am getting at is, Churning itself is evolving.

 

And besides... I cant even count on my fingers and toes the number of people (friends family etc) that I have been able to get a nice bonus on a card, or begin thinking about addressing any credit issues so they are able to do it. Not just anyone can churn.  In fact, one could argue churning is the catalyst for many folks to change their credit for the better which is 1000% myfico forum topic appropriate.

 

I don't think I have ever read here, topic, reply, private message, or otherwise, someones specific scheme to repeatedly go for the same card bonus.  Most of what I read here and discuss are new or existing offers, rentention promos, etc.

 

I apologize if I overreacted I was just befuddled when I read "Churning is not to be discussed on myfico". My mind instantly thinks...ok, churning is another level in the game play of credit. How in the heck is that any different than adding an AU, pushing limits on the discover train, manipulating comenity bank phone system, etc. These are all shortcuts.  They cause equal damage to the lendors.  And yeah, the consequences of people that abuse any shortcut definitely cause grief later on to the traditional game players.  That is just how life goes though. I would be upset with the lendors that allow these nontraditional things to happen.

 

Ok so we can't talk about MS, thats fine with me. But we can share our past experiences with certain bonuses or general tactics, helping others take advantage of combining credit pulls...we just cant say, oh hey you have this card, you should do xyz to get the bonus again in xmonths.

 

quoting cuz its impossible to multiquote here:

"Adding: What is taboo in regards to churning is the advocation of such practices. What usually happens in a churning thread is it turns into an advocation of MS and that is the big taboo on myFico. So be sure to maintain your discussions keeping in mind where the line is."

 

I am fine with this 100%. Its the act of grabbing a card, running it through this, to get that, instead of actually using it. Fine with me, I will never do that. Wish I had fewer bills to pay and a need to do that LOL.


What OP is doing is not churning. There is no need to redefine the term no matter how much some posters repeatedly try to do so. The OP is opening cards for bonuses and actually said they paid the AF at least once. That is not churning. Actually opening a card just for the bonus is not churning in my mind. You want to see churning? Some of the other boards having people opening the same product over and over again and closing the cards before AF hits. That to me is churning when you repeatedly apply for the same product over and over to get the bonus. However, there is a small segment here that seems to feel that if someone opens credit cards for the bonus and then don't use the card beyond the first year then that is churning. I don't see how being that people are applying for different card products . That being said there are other groups who define churning as applying for a large number of cards for the miles/rewards and then closing them befoer AF is due. I don't agree with that definition but the term is not defined specifically anywhere so therefore is open to interpretation. In the end our definition doesn't matter, since it will be the lender's decision on what they will or will not tolerate and therefore somewhat of a moot topic.   

;
Starting Score: EQ: 714, TU 684
Current Score: EQ: 725 7/30/13, TU 684 6/2013, Exp 826 4/16/17, Last App 8/5/17
Goal Score: 800 (Achieved!) In garden until Sepetember 2019
Message 33 of 199
Super Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


kdm31091 wrote:

The industry is as a whole moving to do everything they can to prevent churning, so it stands to reason it's not something they want people doing. Look at Discover's "sign up bonus": you spend for a year, then you get your cash doubled. Ingenious, as there is no real churning possible with it. 


Not really sure about that!  More so that the offer probably won't be available in a year.   If you can cancel your card as soon as you get the payout, and get another with the same offer, that's fine for churning, if they block you from getting the same offer, that's no different from Amex or Chase.

 

Another approach was taken by Citi, with an earlier verison of Premier, where you got some points once you met spend in the first year, and then more when you met spend in the second year, after the AF hit.   While it doesn't avoid churning, it makes it less profitable and longer term, which probably pushes churners to try other cards first, which is all that Citi needs.

Message 34 of 199
Valued Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


longtimelurker wrote:

kdm31091 wrote:

The industry is as a whole moving to do everything they can to prevent churning, so it stands to reason it's not something they want people doing. Look at Discover's "sign up bonus": you spend for a year, then you get your cash doubled. Ingenious, as there is no real churning possible with it. 


Not really sure about that!  More so that the offer probably won't be available in a year.   If you can cancel your card as soon as you get the payout, and get another with the same offer, that's fine for churning, if they block you from getting the same offer, that's no different from Amex or Chase.

 

Another approach was taken by Citi, with an earlier verison of Premier, where you got some points once you met spend in the first year, and then more when you met spend in the second year, after the AF hit.   While it doesn't avoid churning, it makes it less profitable and longer term, which probably pushes churners to try other cards first, which is all that Citi needs.


Let's call it bonus raiding instead. I'm gonna miss it as i've saved tens of thousands of dollars through carefully planned applications for juicy spend bonuses, It's really a shame those pesky miler sites had to put everything out in the open and expose it to more than a small subset that cared to research and find weak points/strong suits in each individual miles/point program.

Shortcuts to credit lead to shortcut results.
Message 35 of 199
Super Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


tuolumne wrote:

longtimelurker wrote:

kdm31091 wrote:

The industry is as a whole moving to do everything they can to prevent churning, so it stands to reason it's not something they want people doing. Look at Discover's "sign up bonus": you spend for a year, then you get your cash doubled. Ingenious, as there is no real churning possible with it. 


Not really sure about that!  More so that the offer probably won't be available in a year.   If you can cancel your card as soon as you get the payout, and get another with the same offer, that's fine for churning, if they block you from getting the same offer, that's no different from Amex or Chase.

 

Another approach was taken by Citi, with an earlier verison of Premier, where you got some points once you met spend in the first year, and then more when you met spend in the second year, after the AF hit.   While it doesn't avoid churning, it makes it less profitable and longer term, which probably pushes churners to try other cards first, which is all that Citi needs.


Let's call it bonus raiding instead. I'm gonna miss it as i've saved tens of thousands of dollars through carefully planned applications for juicy spend bonuses, It's really a shame those pesky miler sites had to put everything out in the open and expose it to more than a small subset that cared to research and find weak points/strong suits in each individual miles/point program.


Honestly most people are not willing to go through the hassle of obtaining multiple signups and following blogger advice. It does take effort. While I'm not a fan of most the bloggers as they are basically out for themselves and give out bad advice in order to induce people to click their links there are a few who provide useful infoirmation. The people reading the blogs are the same type of people who would have been researching this stuff on the internet anyway or following forumns. Therefore I don't think they are significantly increasing the number of people playing the miles game. Now that being said I am not really happy when I see bloggers going on national tv and broadcasting information. With nationwide television and media coverage I think they start killing things for everyone due to overexposure. 

;
Starting Score: EQ: 714, TU 684
Current Score: EQ: 725 7/30/13, TU 684 6/2013, Exp 826 4/16/17, Last App 8/5/17
Goal Score: 800 (Achieved!) In garden until Sepetember 2019
Message 36 of 199
Established Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


Subaroo wrote:

JonE wrote:

lhcole77 wrote:

JonE wrote:

And these days Chase is starting to make Barclays look like Capital One in comparison (not that I have a problem with that.)

 

Chase has always been a somewhat conservative lender, that's growing with their 5-card limit, not just of theirs, but 5 cards from ANY lender.  The only OTHER card I really want from them is the Sapphire Preferred.  That and a few AMEX would complete my card acquisitiions indefinitely. 


Can you please share more about this?


I would say do a search here, since there are threads all over the place in regards to that.  You have a limit of applying for 5 cards TOTAL (not just chase cards) in a 24 month period. 


 

That is not at all true.  My credit card history is not 24 years old at this point, however I have 10 total cards approved in that time frame which the LAST TWO were from Chase.

 

Sure, other than Synchrony, the only bank that I have applied for multiple cards is Chase, but my point is a "total of 5 cards max from all lenders" is not at all on their radar.


It's been covered to death but the policy only applies to Sapphire Preferred, Freedom, and Slate. It does not apply to Ink cards or co-branded cards like United, Marriot, Ritz, AARP, IHG, etc.

Message 37 of 199
Super Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


salt_water_swimming wrote:

Subaroo wrote:

JonE wrote:

lhcole77 wrote:

JonE wrote:

And these days Chase is starting to make Barclays look like Capital One in comparison (not that I have a problem with that.)

 

Chase has always been a somewhat conservative lender, that's growing with their 5-card limit, not just of theirs, but 5 cards from ANY lender.  The only OTHER card I really want from them is the Sapphire Preferred.  That and a few AMEX would complete my card acquisitiions indefinitely. 


Can you please share more about this?


I would say do a search here, since there are threads all over the place in regards to that.  You have a limit of applying for 5 cards TOTAL (not just chase cards) in a 24 month period. 


 

That is not at all true.  My credit card history is not 24 years old at this point, however I have 10 total cards approved in that time frame which the LAST TWO were from Chase.

 

Sure, other than Synchrony, the only bank that I have applied for multiple cards is Chase, but my point is a "total of 5 cards max from all lenders" is not at all on their radar.


It's been covered to death but the policy only applies to Sapphire Preferred, Freedom, and Slate. It does not apply to Ink cards or co-branded cards like United, Marriot, Ritz, AARP, IHG, etc.


Agreed. Just use the search feature and it will pull up all the threads. 

;
Starting Score: EQ: 714, TU 684
Current Score: EQ: 725 7/30/13, TU 684 6/2013, Exp 826 4/16/17, Last App 8/5/17
Goal Score: 800 (Achieved!) In garden until Sepetember 2019
Message 38 of 199
Valued Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened

Awesome limits with Barclay's!!!  Smiley Very HappySmiley Wink I think the idea of closing accounts within the same bank and combining is a great idea.  Less cards, higher limits.  Can't beat that!


FICOS: EQ-812 TU-811 EX-818 Goal - 840-850 Across The Board
Total Credit Lines - 506K Gardening....
"I am the master of my fate and the captain of my destiny" Nelson Mandela
Message 39 of 199
Super Contributor

Re: I Didn't Mean to Churn, Yet it Happened


Sandibeach22 wrote:

Awesome limits with Barclay's!!!  Smiley Very HappySmiley Wink I think the idea of closing accounts within the same bank and combining is a great idea.  Less cards, higher limits.  Can't beat that!


It can be a good idea depending on the situation. However, if you are near the max of your available credit with a particular lender and then you see a card you want with them it can be a problem. Also, some other lenders may be unwilling to issue new cards if they feel someone has too much available credit overall across all lenders. It can take awhile to get to this point, but there may be situations that arise for people where too much available credit could hold them back. This concern will vary from individual to individual depending on their overall exposure but is something to keep in mind if someone should get near that ceiling.  

;
Starting Score: EQ: 714, TU 684
Current Score: EQ: 725 7/30/13, TU 684 6/2013, Exp 826 4/16/17, Last App 8/5/17
Goal Score: 800 (Achieved!) In garden until Sepetember 2019
Message 40 of 199