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@sgtm7 wrote:"I meant to look it up as it was used in 1789. Hence, my link to Judge A. Napalitano's explaination of it. "
The problem is that it is NOT 1789. It is 2010. And the many types of things addressed in the constitution were not really addressed, because they couldn't forsee these changes. Here is an example for you:
From Section 8:
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
Now if you tried to apply the constitution of 1789 to 2010, you "could" come to 3 conclusions:
1. The Army has to appropriate money every two years. We pretty much stick to this and appropriate annually.
2. The Navy doesn't have to appropriate money, it's funding is indefinite.
3. The Air Force is not subject to being regulated by congress, because it is neither a land or a naval force.
Just like the Air Force didn't exist in 1789, and just like the Navy was the most important arm of force for any nation in 1789, things are different now. There was no such thing as EVERYONE being able to get credit in 1789. No such thing as a credit card.
That is a very slippery slope. Once we concede that things are different now...the founders didn't understand our times and couldn't anticipate....so the constitution means something different now than then....what are the results?
1. Freedom of Speech. Founders didn't have email, faxes, television, radio, telegraph. So I guess all of these could be sensored or controlled because they didn't exist back then and therefore don't apply.
2. Right to bear arms. Back then the type of firearms were muskets. Therefore anything invented, that is more powerful, holds more rounds, can be fired more rapidly than the arms that existed at time of constitution don't have any application and therefore may be banned. In fact, since muskets are potentially a hazard and are not practical....in modern times no right to arms should be recognized.
3. Right to assemble. At the time of founders they didn't have automobiles, airplanes, the ability to televise and broadcast on TV, radio, internet....and they didn't have blow horns, microphones, recording devices....then none of these things should be allowed in the process of assembly. Using these would constitute non-peaceful assembly, possibly with intent to arouse.
4. Freedom of religion. This was at a time when slavery was recognized and practiced. It also predated the "invention" of many modern day religions that were formed after the consitution. Some religions have taken up the promotion of political idealogy as a part of their "ministry" thus the religion violates the separation of church and state. And many of these religions didn't exist. Some religions now use modern technologies to advance their doctrine. Some religions are responsible for hate crimes or terrorism. The founders did not anticipate these turn of events and therefore this freedom should be limited.
5. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. This only applied to tangible items. There was no such thing as "miranda rights" at time of constitution. Email, computers, virtual and electonic documents did not exist and were not able to be transmitted instantly. Therefore, these forms of property are not covered under the constitution, because the founders did not address them.
6. Separation of powers, checks and balances. You can imagine the litany of things, departments, branches of armed forces that didn't exist, so technically could be said to be exempt or not applicable to the constitution.
THIS IS A SHORT LIST. Once we decide to say the constitution is out dated and not applicable, and that there is no such thing as timeless principles, only current interpretation based not on the principles and concepts of the constitution, but based upon a secular, modern, maleable and subjective approach.
The constitution is a literal document. It must be used literally. In those areas that are not specific, then the context and spirit of the constitution must be adhered to, and the core tenets of the constitution is that all power eminates from the people. The government has no power over the people. The government, governs within the limits of the constitution and the powers delegated by the people. Those powers not delegated remain with the people or the states respectively.
And a rose is still a rose by any other name. Air force does have a land and sea basis. That is where it takes off from, lands and how it is transported. The flight is a temporary scenario. And the Air Force used to be a part of the Army, later separated into its own specialized branch.
When we ever say power resides in the government, or that rights and freedoms are given by the government, we are on the path that leads to tyranny and oppression, and the loss of freedom, except that which the government decides is expedient to its designs and needs.
This is why national debt is so problematic. It is our debt. The government is turning us into indentured or inservitude servants, bound (bonded) by the debt it creates. We are responsible for the debt...thus we have to work (slavery) or give up assets (seizure) based upon the whims of a goverment who now dictates what we may own, how much and how much we shall labor for its benefit.
FINAL NOTE: The constitution does state what the situation is where it did not address something: THE POWER REMAINS WITH THE STATES OR PEOPLE RESPECTIVELY. Anything not specifically delegated to the government, is not within the governmental charter. And that is what the constitution is, the charter by which it is legitimate and can exist. When it fails to be bound within its charter....what have we now?
IMO IME
"The constitution is a literal document. It must be used literally."
If that is what you think, then you would have no problem with the credit card act. A bank in Dakota that provides credit cards to consumers in 1 or more other states is conducting commerce with other states. The "literal" interpretation of the constitution would say that the congress had the right to regulate it.
"Anything not specifically delegated to the government, is not within the governmental charter. And that is what the constitution is, the charter by which it is legitimate and can exist."
Yes, and like I said, the constitution "specifically" states that congress will regulate commerce between states. You are right, it is a slippery slope. If credit cards existed when the constitution was written, would they have thought that congress should regulate the banks that issue them? I don't know. All we can do is guess. Regardless of what judges, lawyers, and historians think, none of them were around with the people who wrote the constitution.
"And a rose is still a rose by any other name. Air force does have a land and sea basis. That is where it takes off from, lands and how it is transported. The flight is a temporary scenario. And the Air Force used to be a part of the Army, later separated into its own specialized branch."
The Air Force doesn't take off or land from the sea. The Navy has it's own aircraft for that, and they are part of the Navy. The Navy's aircraft take off from land or sea, but they are still part of the Navy. The Army Air Corps was part of the Army. There is no longer an Army Air Corps, it is the "Air" Force, and they are no longer a department within the Army, but a separate branch. They are not a land force, but an "air" force.
That is irrelevant though. The point, is that if you look at the constitution, it was written based on the assumption that you would only need land forces when you were actually at war or during a crisis. (Probably thinking that a strong Army might lead to an Army takeover of the civilian government.) Hence the fact that appropriations for the Army was only good for two years, but the Navy was to ALWAYS be funded. It is mandatory in the constitution. That was the "spirit" of the constitution in those times. If we went strictly by the spirit and/or what the constitution literally says, then we should not be funding the Army except in time of war. Experience has taught us, that if you wait until you are attacked before you decide to fund an Army, then pretty soon you will cease to exist as a country. The state militia concept won't work, because you can't regulate strength, weapons, etc.
Taking that in consideration, you CAN'T take the constitution literally in cases where the times have changed. The best we can do is determine that if the constitution was written today, by the same people, how would they weigh in on it.
"Great provision in the law"?! While it sounds great politically ("lets protect our young ones from those eeeevil, predatory lenders") it makes absolutely no sense logically. Passing arbitrary laws based on age alone, rather than relevant factors (like do they have a steady income and some savings?), is idiotic.
18 year-olds are assumed to be responsible enough to vote for the most powerful person in the world, and mature enough to make a decision to go die on the battlefield, yet they need mom and dad to hold their hands when it comes to money? Are you kidding me? Sure, some will be irresponsible and dig themselves into a hole. So let them. And let them learn the consequences of their actions. (Just like the irresponsible middle-agers who also can't manage their money.) As for the responsible ones, let them build their credit scores. We don't need the government protecting us from ourselves.
1. There is no magic age that makes you responsible.
2. If the companies want to have these rules, and you agree to it, why should some 3rd party stand in the way of it? It's none of their business.
3. The government's rules on lending and manipulations of markets are what led to the problems with banks and bubbles.
@Equinox wrote:
I never said there was a "magic age". People who freshly turn 18 tend to seek out credit in an act of desperation, from what I've noticed anyhow.
I didn't mean to imply that you believe there is a 'magic age'. My point is that you can now replace the number 18, in your sentence above with 21.