@nyancat wrote:
@lg8302ch wrote:This is strange for the US. I had a few examples in Europe where my chip cards could not be processed because they were default to chip & pin and all of my chip cards are only chip & signature. The fall back to chip & pin did not work at a ticket vending machine. So I tried Cap1 with no chip and it asked for ATM pin and smoothly processed. In these rare occasions I learnt either you have real chip & pin or make sure to still have a magnetic stripe card that processes the old fashioned way but it worked.
There is no way I would have given my CC number either .. I might have asked to open the gate with no payment ...lol
The reason for the behaviour you noted is because a chip card MUST honour the CVM list (doesn't always, but is required to - there are machines that don't). A magnetic stripe card CVM is determined by the terminal. This is why, for a magstripe card, you must know your online PIN (aka "cash advance" PIN) if you'll be in eastern Europe (where magstripe+PIN is common). Don't worry, you won't be charged as a cash advance for a purchase, no matter what you're told. That'd be incorrect coding. Bank CSRs rarely understand that the coding of the transaction, not the verification, determines if it's a cash advance.
As for the cards not working with PIN backup, but working with a magstripe card - that is quite surprising to me. What chip cards were you using, and did they actually have PIN in the CVM list? Most Visa cards do NOT (except for Bank of America and some smaller banks), while ALL MasterCards do (MasterCard requires it). This is usually just online-verified PIN, but if it could verify the PIN on a magstripe card, it should have been able to verify online PIN on a chip card if the CVM list allowed it. In my experience, if a machine won't take an online PIN capable chip card, it won't take a magstripe card either - it wants to verify an OFFLINE PIN.
What county were you in and what machines were you using? Also, good news - this situation should get better as Visa is going to be requiring newly installed machines to support no CVM (don't verify the cardholder), which is in the CVM list (at the bottom) for all chip cards.
Thanks for the info. I am still confused to why different cards on the same network will react differently. It was at Zurich Airport at the train ticket vending machines of the Swiss Railways. I know I have used Barclays Arrival + before to top up my prepaid sim card because it counts as travel charge and like this it is a nice free phone service for me when I use that sim 
So the Arrival was with chip and worked with pin on MC network. BofA is a Visa with chip and did not work. CSP is Visa and chip and also got rejected. CSP did not even request a pin and came right out. Cap1 was Visa with magnetic stripe and worked with ATM pin. I know that Europen chip & pin Visa and Mastercards work at these terminals. Next time I will see what will happen with Discover.
At a grocery store (Migros) I did also a small experiment with my cards at the self check out terminals. Arrival+ and BofA work with pin (chip cards on MC and VI network) and the funny thing CSP does process as well with no identification at all ....just stick in and wait ..no pin - no signature and payment is done. Cap1 Visa with ATM pin also successful. ... so I have not really found a system and it looks to me that it depends on merchants settings on the terminals. Another grocery chain (Coop) with self check out machines will only process any chip cards including CSP with signature.. and a big red alarm goes on for an attendant to come as it is chip & signature... how embarrassing 
... self check out for faster serivce get stuck due to signature verification on my chip card...a new way of making friends
@lg8302ch wrote:Thanks for the info. I am still confused to why different cards on the same network will react differently. It was at Zurich Airport at the train ticket vending machines of the Swiss Railways. I know I have used Barclays Arrival + before to top up my prepaid sim card because it counts as travel charge and like this it is a nice free phone service for me when I use that sim
At a grocery store (Migros) I did also a small experiment with my cards at the self check out terminals. Arrival+ and BofA work with pin (chip cards on MC and VI network) and the funny thing CSP does process as well with no identification at all ....just stick in and wait ..no pin - no signature and payment is done. Cap1 Visa with ATM pin also successful. ... so I have not really found a system and it looks to me that it depends on merchants settings on the terminals. Another grocery chain (Coop) with self check out machines will only process any chip cards including CSP with signature.. and a big red alarm goes on for an attendant to come as it is chip & signature... how embarrassing
Thank you very much for the info on exactly what cards you were using as it adds to my knowledge and the collective knowledge on what machines in each country allow. In short, for chip cards, within the network rules, the issuer decides what cardholder verification methods (CVMs) will be supported, and what the order of preference is. This is based on a CVM list. For magnetic stripe cards, the terminal determines the CVM. This is always signature per network rules except in some countries, like Romania, with a PIN mandate for these transactions (and also in some automated kiosks, as you learned).
Now, as for your card, this might give you some idea of what was going on:
1. The Barclay's supports every CVM that exists, though signature is the preference. Are you saying this did or didn't work in the train kiosk? If it did NOT work, I think our clue is in the second point. This card supports online PIN and offline PIN verification but prefers online (unlike most chip and PIN countries, where offline is preferred for speed).
2. The Bank of America card supports online PIN verification (same as cash advance PIN), but not offline. It is also signature priority. This failed because the terminal couldn't verify the PIN online, which is odd as it could for a magnetic stripe transaction. Most likely, online EMV PIN verification is setup incorrectly or broken.
3. The CSP doesn't allow any PIN verification per its CVM list. Thus the immediate rejection (no form of PIN is allowed, and the kiosk apparently didn't allow no CVM).
Now, for the self-checkouts. In the UK, these are required to support signature, so that's what I'm familiar with. As for the ones that didn't you encountered (and I wish they didn't - it'd be better), the card details above should enlighten you as to what happened. The Barclay's and Bank of America both support some form of PIN, so this was used. The CSP does not, so the last entry in the CVM list - No CVM - was used.
The big red alarm is much more common, as I'm not even sure Visa/MC network rules allow self-checkouts (since they're considered attended terminals) to not support signature. Only unattended terminals are supposed to be allowed to not support signature. If signature is supported, the card's CVM list on all three of these cards says that using it is the preferred CVM.
Which is the huge issue with American cards. What we want are cards with signature near the bottom of the CVM list, but only two banks really offer them in the US - UNFCU, and BMO Diner's Club.
Now, as for your card, this might give you some idea of what was going on:
1. The Barclay's supports every CVM that exists, though signature is the preference. Are you saying this did or didn't work in the train kiosk? If it did NOT work, I think our clue is in the second point. This card supports online PIN and offline PIN verification but prefers online (unlike most chip and PIN countries, where offline is preferred for speed). oh that explains why the Arrival + has been successful each time
2. The Bank of America card supports online PIN verification (same as cash advance PIN), but not offline. It is also signature priority. This failed because the terminal couldn't verify the PIN online, which is odd as it could for a magnetic stripe transaction. Most likely, online EMV PIN verification is setup incorrectly or broken.
so looks like the terminal require offling pin on chip and this would explain BofA not working at the ticket vening machines with chip
3. The CSP doesn't allow any PIN verification per its CVM list. Thus the immediate rejection (no form of PIN is allowed, and the kiosk apparently didn't allow no CVM). ..now I see why at the ticket vending machine it got instantly declined but at the grocery will work with no pin and at another grocery with signature
Now, for the self-checkouts. In the UK, these are required to support signature, so that's what I'm familiar with. As for the ones that didn't you encountered (and I wish they didn't - it'd be better), the card details above should enlighten you as to what happened. The Barclay's and Bank of America both support some form of PIN, so this was used. The CSP does not, so the last entry in the CVM list - No CVM - was used.
The big red alarm is much more common, as I'm not even sure Visa/MC network rules allow self-checkouts (since they're considered attended terminals) to not support signature. Only unattended terminals are supposed to be allowed to not support signature. If signature is supported, the card's CVM list on all three of these cards says that using it is the preferred CVM.
Which is the huge issue with American cards. What we want are cards with signature near the bottom of the CVM list, but only two banks really offer them in the US - UNFCU, and BMO Diner's Club.
In December I will apply for DCP or DCE (if I just knew if grocery abroad would count !) it would make my decision easier to which one. Thanks so much for your explanations and it did for sure shred some light in this chip jungle ... If I had a wish I would vote for chip & offline pin !! after your explanation and my experience it looks that works best and everywhere.
Looking forward to app for Diners and hopefully get approved so I can continue to challenge European chip terminals
@lg8302ch wrote:In December I will apply for DCP or DCE (if I just knew if grocery abroad would count !) it would make my decision easier to which one. Thanks so much for your explanations and it did for sure shred some light in this chip jungle
Looking forward to app for Diners and hopefully get approved so I can continue to challenge European chip terminals
The Diner's should work anywhere a British or Canadian Mastercard would work, I believe that it is set up the exact same way as a typical British or Canadian CVM list (though no one has posted the CVM list to verify that).
What I am finding most odd is that your Bank of America card didn't work in the one ticket machine, but your Capital One card did. Those are both online PIN verification situations. Why it failed verifying an EMV PIN online, but succeeded with a magstripe PIN is most odd - something clearly misconfigured or broken. Especially as I thought most German cards (I'd expect Switzerland to be similar) preferred online PIN (as does the Barclaycard). This may have been more of a temporary glitch than the B of A card outright not working (e.g. transactions sometimes fail, it happens - the card may, generally, work in those kiosks).
im not aware of boa have a chip and pin. i think they are only chip and sig.
which card are you referring to?
@Anonymous wrote:
Blondy250, I'm familiar with that garage. They DO take contact EMV chip cards, the attendant was incorrect. This is probably because the attendant doesn't understand how smart cards operate or how long to wait before removing a smart / chip card from the reader. You may have been using credit cards in readers for 30 years, but with EMV you now need to learn a new technique. You need to insert the chip card into the reader and leave it in the reader until it prompts you to remove it. This can take 10-30 seconds, maybe more if the communication line is slow. The company computers need to interact with the chip on the card, which can take a short time. With magnetic stripes, you can insert and immediately remove a card. Again, with chip cards you can't do this and need to let the card stay inside the reader until it is finished interacting with the chip.
Don't bother. I already tried to explain this to him politely and received an extremely rude and arrogant response. Frankly, I kinda hope now that he doesn't learn. In a couple years, he will be unable to buy gas anywhere as he arrogantly refuses to leave the card in the reader .... 'Murica is in for a long, long road on customer acceptance with chip cards
@nyancat wrote:
Don't bother. I already tried to explain this to him politely and received an extremely rude and arrogant response. Frankly, I kinda hope now that he doesn't learn. In a couple years, he will be unable to buy gas anywhere as he arrogantly refuses to leave the card in the reader
I realize you want to be helpful but you're too confident in identifying the problem as the user despite the fact he is saying that he knows how to use EMV. You're "95% sure" but he's 100% sure on what happened, so I don't see why there's any dispute :/
