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drkaje
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE


android01 wrote:

The title of this thread reminded me of something I'd thought of before.  What IF Amex decided to do away with backdating and change everyone's AMEX card to the date it was opened?  There would be RIOTS in the streets of the Garden, MAYHEM at CB and FW.  The reverberations would be felt through almost every credit report in America! AMEX would have to post armed guards at it's main office building.  EX, EQ and TU's computers would simply catch on fire and shut down!  

 

On a more serious note, I'm surprised AMEX hasn't done away with backdating already, or at least been pressured to do so from various fronts.  Backdating allows for a distinct manipulation of the credit reporting system (by those who know and care about such things) thus putting the entire credit reporting "system" in question.    


AU and HHI impact people's ability to obtain credit to the same extent, or more, than Amex's quirk. :smileyhappy:

 

Not trying to start a discusion on those topic. Simply calling a spade a spade. Utilization impacts credit scores more than AOAA and income definitely affects approvals.

 

I understand people being offended they can't take advantage of a membership feature. That being said, it's kind of silly to target Amex considering anyone could have gotten a card if their personal credit were good enough. That's totally different than using someone else's credit/income as a bandaid. That likely falls under "Taboo responses", LOL!


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Revelate
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE

[ Edited ]

drkaje wrote:

android01 wrote:

The title of this thread reminded me of something I'd thought of before.  What IF Amex decided to do away with backdating and change everyone's AMEX card to the date it was opened?  There would be RIOTS in the streets of the Garden, MAYHEM at CB and FW.  The reverberations would be felt through almost every credit report in America! AMEX would have to post armed guards at it's main office building.  EX, EQ and TU's computers would simply catch on fire and shut down!  

 

On a more serious note, I'm surprised AMEX hasn't done away with backdating already, or at least been pressured to do so from various fronts.  Backdating allows for a distinct manipulation of the credit reporting system (by those who know and care about such things) thus putting the entire credit reporting "system" in question.    


AU and HHI impact people's ability to obtain credit to the same extent, or more, than Amex's quirk. :smileyhappy:

 

Not trying to start a discusion on those topic. Simply calling a spade a spade. Utilization impacts credit scores more than AOAA and income definitely affects approvals.

 

I understand people being offended they can't take advantage of a membership feature. That being said, it's kind of silly to target Amex considering anyone could have gotten a card if their personal credit were good enough. That's totally different than using someone else's credit/income as a bandaid. That likely falls under "Taboo responses", LOL!



Heh, remember, they (FICO and the lenders) tried to nuke AU's altogether.  

 

Don't think that just because they weren't successful this time, that they won't continue to try to limit the abuses / excesses as they see it when it comes to "credit report manipulation."  Amex will probably have to do away with their backdating at some point in the future as well as Android correctly pointed out.  It doesn't bother me too much, though hopefully it'll be more than 3 years from now :smileywink:.

 

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psychoinhell
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE

I do not see AMEX willingly getting rid of it.  They like the prestige that goes with their cards.  They have always had that prestige.  The fact that no other organization does it tells me that there is something unique about AMEX that allows them to get away with it.  If it was easy to do you would think Discover would go ahead and do it to add to their prestige.

 

The only way I see AMEX stopping the backdating is by court order.


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Revelate
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE

[ Edited ]

psychoinhell wrote:

I do not see AMEX willingly getting rid of it.  They like the prestige that goes with their cards.  They have always had that prestige.  The fact that no other organization does it tells me that there is something unique about AMEX that allows them to get away with it.  If it was easy to do you would think Discover would go ahead and do it to add to their prestige.

 

The only way I see AMEX stopping the backdating is by court order.


They can still keep the Member Since date the same, and stop backdating the credit reports.  That's a trivial change... and would affect the prestige of the Amex brand, well, not at all.

 

The vast majority of humanity doesn't know about backdating, let alone how it can be worked to one's FICO advantage.  I was talking to a buddy who's been in and around the credit world for more than a decade on the inside, and he didn't even know that Amex backdated on one's credit reports.  This is a dude easily in the 99.9th percentile on these topics, so if he's not exposed to it, what chance does the average consumer have unless they stumble across this or a few other forums where it's discussed endlessly?

 

Eventually enough people will do it, that it'll be considered every bit the abuse that AU's are by the lenders... I don't know what would force Amex to stop, but there's a non-zero chance that they'll do so of their own volition.

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drkaje
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE

I think someone would have an easier chance challenging AU factoring than member since date. Member since date (in most cases) is still one's own credit history. Even in the cases when an ACM benefits from backdating, it's not much different than being an AU. Before anyone corrects me; I realize Amex ACMs are legally liable for their own charges. :smileyhappy:

 

I'm not anti-AU, LOL! If we're going to discuss ways in which scores get inflated, let it all hang out. :smileyhappy:


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Revelate
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE


drkaje wrote:

I think someone would have an easier chance challenging AU factoring than member since date. Member since date (in most cases) is still one's own credit history. Even in the cases when an ACM benefits from backdating, it's not much different than being an AU. Before anyone corrects me; I realize Amex ACMs are legally liable for their own charges. :smileyhappy:

 

I'm not anti-AU, LOL! If we're going to discuss ways in which scores get inflated, let it all hang out. :smileyhappy:



Member Since date could be kept without the tradeline backdating.  I'd encourage you to keep them seperate for this discussion :smileywink:.  

 

Nobody has a problem with having a member since date online or on one's card, what the industry is eventually going to take exception to is having their tradelines show a historical open date of that member since date.  That's the potential issue, and it's a laughably easy change to be made in their systems to simply rip that out going forward.  Enjoy it while it lasts, as I don't think it's a matter of 'if' it gets pulled, the discussion is really 'when'.

 

If nothing else, remember this is FICO's forum we're discussing this on.  If the consumer lending industry decides that Amex is playing fast and loose, they'll simply ask FICO in their next revision to factor in some sort of penalty or other anti-backdating method for even having an Amex card... and at that point it's either for the courts, or for Amex to simply back down on their policy which outside of this forum and a few others, nobody even knows / cares about.  They'll almost certainly just quietly fix the account backdating so it doesn't impact the tradeline on the credit reports, and it'll be all over.

 

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drkaje
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE

@ Rev,

 

The number of people helped by Amex's quirk and its impact is likely small. By "small", I mean in comparison to other industry quirks that affect scores and lending to a far greater extent. 

 

If someone wants to logically explain why it should be illegal, in comparison to other activities, I'll listen. There aren't many opinions I hold so dearly that a logical explanation can't change them.

 

Being able to open additional Amex accounts without affecting ones average account age is like being your own AU. :smileyhappy: If being your own AU is playing fast and loose... what should the industry do to correct situations when people are using the credit of others? :smileyhappy:

 

Do you sort of see my point? In the bigger picture; this is a small, miniscule aspect to the credit world that doesn't negatively impact anyone. If we're gonna look at ways FICO could be tweaked to minimize risk, AU (and another verboten topic) would be higher on their list of priorities. The system is the way it is because companies are making money.

 

Does it create a 'thicker' file? Yes. I wouldn't waste time devil's advocating against something like that. A manual review should reveal activity, AU, Joint accounts, inquiries/accounts, etc... Companies likely have internal risk models, anyways.

 

It's doubtful the average credit consumer finds this stuff as fascinating as we do, LOL!


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sjt
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE


android01 wrote:

The title of this thread reminded me of something I'd thought of before.  What IF Amex decided to do away with backdating and change everyone's AMEX card to the date it was opened?  There would be RIOTS in the streets of the Garden, MAYHEM at CB and FW.  The reverberations would be felt through almost every credit report in America! AMEX would have to post armed guards at it's main office building.  EX, EQ and TU's computers would simply catch on fire and shut down!  

 

On a more serious note, I'm surprised AMEX hasn't done away with backdating already, or at least been pressured to do so from various fronts.  Backdating allows for a distinct manipulation of the credit reporting system (by those who know and care about such things) thus putting the entire credit reporting "system" in question.    


Lets hope they dont.

 

As most of know, Amex recently changed its policy with regards to the "Member Since" date for AU. It makes sense for that change to occur.

 

If they are going to make any other changes my guess it would be not counting an AU as a member. So the membership date reflects the date when you actually have your own account.

 

I think a case can be made for backdating primary members.

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sjt
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE


Revelate wrote:

psychoinhell wrote:

I do not see AMEX willingly getting rid of it.  They like the prestige that goes with their cards.  They have always had that prestige.  The fact that no other organization does it tells me that there is something unique about AMEX that allows them to get away with it.  If it was easy to do you would think Discover would go ahead and do it to add to their prestige.

 

The only way I see AMEX stopping the backdating is by court order.


They can still keep the Member Since date the same, and stop backdating the credit reports.  That's a trivial change... and would affect the prestige of the Amex brand, well, not at all.

 

The vast majority of humanity doesn't know about backdating, let alone how it can be worked to one's FICO advantage.  I was talking to a buddy who's been in and around the credit world for more than a decade on the inside, and he didn't even know that Amex backdated on one's credit reports.  This is a dude easily in the 99.9th percentile on these topics, so if he's not exposed to it, what chance does the average consumer have unless they stumble across this or a few other forums where it's discussed endlessly?

 

Eventually enough people will do it, that it'll be considered every bit the abuse that AU's are by the lenders... I don't know what would force Amex to stop, but there's a non-zero chance that they'll do so of their own volition.


I think CRAs alot more pressing issues then to go after Amex. They still havent completely done away with AU factoring in credit scoring.

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HollyDay
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Re: No more AMEX backdating?-UPDATE

Another update: I just signed in to my account online, and it now reads "Thank you for being a Cardmember since 1999." I won't celebrate until the card starts reporting and 1999 is listed in my credit report, though.

Sidenote: I've enjoyed reading the discussion that has ensued about AMEX's backdating policy. It will be interesting to see what the future holds!


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