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Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)

I've had to do bank statements so kind of a mini one
Message 41 of 47
longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)


@yfan wrote:

@longtimelurker wrote:

There is quite a difference between providing say pay-stubs, or even a W2, and a tax transcript.  If you are filing jointly, the transcript provides private financial info about someone who may not be on the card.  It can also show stuff you have no interest in Amex knowing, if you are blind,  number of dependents etc, it is WAY more intrusive than it needs to be (see what other companies do with exactly the same concerns).   It also doesn't provide asset information, so doesn't really answer the question of whether you can pay.

 

Just because you don't have concerns doesn't mean the question isn't entirely valid.   Amex's process is outside the norm.


One can only file jointly with a spouse, and given that an issuer can go after the spouse should you fail to pay, that is definitely part of ability to pay (or maybe more to the point, ability to collect). Dependents matter too. Someone making $60K with 3 kids would have a different ability to pay back should tough times hit than someone making the same amount but who doesn't have any dependents. You may not like it, but it's relevant information.

 

As others have pointed out, this isn't for toy limits. We're talking about someone in this case who already has $28K of combined credit on their two Amex cards. The reason most people never run into this is because most people aren't obsessed with getting every penny of CLI they possibly can. But we can't have our cake and eat it too. We want to maximize those CLIs so our util always looks better than everyone else's, there may be a price to pay.


Is that really true outside of community property states, where the accounts are not co-mingled and the spouse/domestic partner had no part in the card?

Message 42 of 47
yfan
Valued Contributor

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)


@longtimelurker wrote:

Is that really true outside of community property states, where the accounts are not co-mingled and the spouse/domestic partner had no part in the card?


Actually, it can be argued that information about joint income is even more relevant for people in non-community property states, aka Equitable Distribution states. In those cases, the returns likely provide an insight as to how much of the income - both earned income and income from investments and assets - belongs to each spouse, or specifically to the cardholder, which in addition can provide a rough estimate of asset distribution among the couple as well. This will tell the creditor just exactly how much they can count on to recover their money. In community property states, the matter is simpler and they can go after the whole thing.

 

There is no difference of course when it comes to dependents and how that affects the ability to pay.

 

In answer to an earlier point you raised as to how far creditors can take it, and you took it to the absurd end where a creditor insists on approving each of your bank transactions, that is often the problem with taking something to its logical absurd. Aside from the fact that legal protections exists that keep others from telling me what to do with my bank account, there IS a difference between providing information and submitting to a creditor controlling how I spend my money. This case isn't about control, it's about information  being provided and a decision being made. To that end, would I be comfortable with providing credit card company detailed information on my bank transactions? Heck no. But then again, I'm not going around asking for 25K, 30K credit limits.

 

What Amex does clearly works for them. But the thing is, no one is required to have an Amex card. The problem here isn't that we don't have a choice. We do. The problem here is we want to choose Amex AND don't want to give them what they want. That's what I have no sympathy for.

Message 43 of 47
longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)


@yfan wrote:

@longtimelurker wrote:

Is that really true outside of community property states, where the accounts are not co-mingled and the spouse/domestic partner had no part in the card?


Actually, it can be argued that information about joint income is even more relevant for people in non-community property states, aka Equitable Distribution states. In those cases, the returns likely provide an insight as to how much of the income - both earned income and income from investments and assets - belongs to each spouse, or specifically to the cardholder, which in addition can provide a rough estimate of asset distribution among the couple as well. This will tell the creditor just exactly how much they can count on to recover their money. In community property states, the matter is simpler and they can go after the whole thing.

 

There is no difference of course when it comes to dependents and how that affects the ability to pay.

 

In answer to an earlier point you raised as to how far creditors can take it, and you took it to the absurd end where a creditor insists on approving each of your bank transactions, that is often the problem with taking something to its logical absurd. Aside from the fact that legal protections exists that keep others from telling me what to do with my bank account, there IS a difference between providing information and submitting to a creditor controlling how I spend my money. This case isn't about control, it's about information  being provided and a decision being made. To that end, would I be comfortable with providing credit card company detailed information on my bank transactions? Heck no. But then again, I'm not going around asking for 25K, 30K credit limits.

 

What Amex does clearly works for them. But the thing is, no one is required to have an Amex card. The problem here isn't that we don't have a choice. We do. The problem here is we want to choose Amex AND don't want to give them what they want. That's what I have no sympathy for.


So the blanket statement about "going after the spouse" was a little too broad, right?  The spouse, given certain distribution of assets, won't be responsible, even if he/she was an ACM on the card.

 

But I think we disagree with with the "thing" is here.  Some people are just saying that they won't provide the 4506-T to Amex even if it means not getting the CLI.  ANd of course they wish that wasn't the case, but I don't think people are other than accepting.   The whole argument exploded because of the claim that that was wrong view.

Message 44 of 47
longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)

I should add that t have in fact twice submitted the 4506-T to Amex.  The first time because I didn't know better, and the second time as a calculated decision about how much I wanted the CLI.

Message 45 of 47
yfan
Valued Contributor

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)


@longtimelurker wrote:

So the blanket statement about "going after the spouse" was a little too broad, right?  The spouse, given certain distribution of assets, won't be responsible, even if he/she was an ACM on the card.

 

But I think we disagree with with the "thing" is here.  Some people are just saying that they won't provide the 4506-T to Amex even if it means not getting the CLI.  ANd of course they wish that wasn't the case, but I don't think people are other than accepting.   The whole argument exploded because of the claim that that was wrong view.


"The spouse, given certain distribution of assets, won't be responsible"... which is in and of itself important information - a point I made in detail in my previous post. So yes, admittedly it was a little too broad for me to make a blanket statement that creditors can go after the spouse, which is fixed simply by adding "in many cases" at the end of the sentence, but frankly, your focus on that point is too narrow in light of the fact that we are discussing the legitimacy of asking for joint tax information in order to extend credit to one half of a married couple.

 

It's certainly one's prerogative as to whether to send in the tax information that is being requested. One can choose not to accept the card or CLI by not providing the informaiton. I see nothing wrong with that. But I don't find much to like in posts that essentially take the form "I want a CLI to 25K+, they are asking for this info to consider the request, is there a way around it and still get the CLI?"

Message 46 of 47
longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Not Sending In 4506T For Amex CLI (Questions)

OK, guess we have to disagree!  To me, complaining  at least initially, is very valid, because other issuers don't do this in exactly the same situation, so out-of-the-usual requests like this get discussed.   But fine.

Message 47 of 47
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