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Frequent Contributor
DrJim
Posts: 361
Registered: ‎10-26-2009

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy

I think that income plays a huge part in CLI's and initial CL.  AMEX gave me a $2K limit that I increased to $6K after 61 days.  That was probably justified.  But six months later I had $18K and six months after that $25K.  No way my spending justifies that.  I really think it is predicated more on my income.  YMMV.



Starting Score: TU 672 EQ 654 10/20/09
Current Score: TU 775 EQ 783 EX 795 Dec 2013
AMEX Delta Platinum $35K, NFCU Visa Signature $30K, HHonors Reserve Visa $35K, WF $13.5K,
Regular Contributor
cutemarty1
Posts: 197
Registered: ‎02-03-2011

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy


ajh5408 wrote:

Based on personal experience with AMEX and other lenders, I disagree with the necessity of running up your card... My Clear had been sockdrawered for a full 6+ months when they trippled my line. Similarly, Citi recently did an auto-CLI on my Dividend, which is also sockdrawered and has been for 6+ months. My last Discover CLI (not triple, but close) also came at a time when that card was given very, very minimal use. Meanwhile, the cards I actually use (AMEX SC, Chase Freedom, and PenFed PR) haven't received an auto-CLI in ages. To be fair, I haven't explicitly requested them either, but given what I've personally experienced, I simply disagree that making "good use" of your existing credit line is either necessary or prudent in order to earn higher limits. Your income and the size of your existing lines are both far more important factors, which is why it is critical to push for higher limits, even if you have no intention of using them.


Hmmm. Maybe ill SD my Amex Hitlon. Been denied 4x for a CLI. lol. I hate being hurt!

My TL : BCE AMEX 24k / Home Depot 16.5 K / CSP 16.5k / Barclays Arrival MC 15k / BoA 123 14k / Citi World 12.8k / CU Visa 11k/ Nordstrom Visa 10K / Freedom 10k / Citi AA 9.1k / Discover 9k / Macy's Store 3K / Best buy 2.4K / BBRZ Gold 1.4K / AE 1.4k / Express 1.4K/
Established Contributor
Cdnewmanpac
Posts: 767
Registered: ‎01-16-2012

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy

My thoughts (long, sorry):

1. The concept of a relationship with a corporation (with all due respect to Citizens United) is a joke. They exist to make money. You represent an opportunity to make money. They, in turn, offer a service or product you find valuable and are either willing to pay for (annual fee/interest) or provide them a mechanism to make profit (usage fees). There is no relationship until you reach the income/asset level that entitles you to private banking services. Even then, you are just a route to a different form of profit. The only reason to ever get a card is because it provides you with some benefit. If it stops providing that benefit, you should stop using it. To me, worrying about what a company "thinks" or "feels" or "wants" is anthropomorphism at its worst. 

2. While the 3x cli at 60 days is a nice feature (and I suspect is a legacy from their computer algorithms having been developed for charge cards), I agree it is just a feature and not a guarantee. That being said, I see no value in trying to base your spending pattern on an artificial attempt to get a cli. Use the card for the reasons you got it. If you got it just for gas and groceries, use it for gas and groceries. There are just as many people who got the 3x cli after just doing that as there are those who ran large amounts through it every month. I personally had a 3k spend in 3 months to get the bonus points, so combined with a very low limit (1k), I had to pay multiple times/month to keep under the limit. Is that normal for me? No. Did I do it to get the 3x cli? No. I did it to get the bonus. I also got the cli to 3k, but if I never get another bump, the card will still be useful to me.

3. While I respect Credit Scholar's point conceptually, I don't know if the evidence bears it out. There are too many examples of people putting 150/month on the card and still getting clis for it to be purely valid. The algorithms Amex uses are incredibly complex. The idea that something as simple as spending amount per month over two months would reliably predict cli success seems mathematically unlikely to me.

4. This forum is an exception. Most Americans are not rebuilding their credit, while I supect the majority of users of these forums is. The average credit score nationwide is still around 720. I doubt the average score of forum members is that high. The strategies employed or recommended here are always going to be exceptional because of that. 

5. The "relationship" you build with a Zync (now green, I guess) isn't a relationship, its data. Some people have very high credit scores combined with high income. They don't need to game the system because they are who the system was designed for. Some have high credit scores and low income. They will have to play some games to overcome the impact of their low income. Getting GE backed cards or NFCU, etc. is a way to boost credit limits through gamesmanship in order to take advantage of products that were initially designed for people with higher income. By the same token, there are some who have high incomes but poor credit scores (such as myself). In order to get products that are useful to us, we also have to game the system. So I got a Zync and gave Amex 6 months of data. This data helped Amex make decisions about me that didn't just center on my credit scores (bad) and income (ok). This wasn't a "relationship", Amex isn't going to buy me flowers or let me get to 2nd base. But that doesn't invalidate the strategy. I think my spending habits match what Amex targets. I think that seeing that will make Amex more likely to give me useful products despite my poor score. I think many other rebuilders on this forum could benefit in the same way.

6. "High income" on this forum (and in American generally) is a misnomer. If your household income is less than 350k/year, you are not wealthy. If your household income is 100k to 350k, you are (the incredibly shrinking) middle class. I know nobody likes to be told they are poor, so I won't continue the example. Call yourselves working class, whatever. The point is that there are lots of products designed for the working poor (Walmart, for example) and many designed for the middle class (Chase Freedom, discover more, etc.) and there are some products designed for the wealthy. Amex may have expanded their base to remain profitable, but at their core they are still designing products for the wealthy. If you are not in that group, it is reasonable to expect you will need to game the system to some degree to get the products that work for you. 

7. I think a huge amount of the issues that arise around Amex products on this forum (including the cli issue) come from a fundamental disconnect: a group of people who are rebuilding their credit or just starting out, most of whom earn less than 100k and don't travel extensively for work are constantly discussing an issuer whose products are primarily designed for business travelers with excellent credit whose income routinely exceeds 100k (often by a lot). As long as that is the case, there will be "disappointed in amex" threads and "I hate amex, they didn't give me 3x cli" threads and "what is the value of amex green", etc.

In wallet: Ink Plus 10k, AMEX TE 25k. In bag: CSP 16k, USAA WMC 15k, Hyatt 13k, United MPE 12k, AMEX HHonors 3k. In SD: Cap 1 QS 5k, Discover IT 7k. FICO 08 says my EQ is now 844, was 510 in 2010.
Senior Contributor
youngandcreditwrthy
Posts: 6,154
Registered: ‎08-16-2012

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy

Idk how accurate all of this stuff is...
But I used something like 10% of my Amex bce cl for two months and got the 3xcli. I don't plan on spending more or changing anything. I'll prob spend like $600 a month on it an pif out of a $10,500 cl. My fico is around 700 across the board, and my overall util is like 10%. so to say that you have to spend a ton of money to get a 3xcli from Amex is a little silly... Ime, creditors give you higher cls if you barely spend anything. If I used even 30% of all of my lines, Id def expect aa from my creditors. I, however, have almost $100k in cred. So ymmv... But I certainly do not plan to spend any more beyond my means. I also have a pretty high income for my age.
Marriott PR$25k | BCE $24.5K |BankAmericard Visa $25k| Wmt Discover $12.5k | BR Visa $12.5k | Amex Delta Gold $10k | Discover IT $10k | Paypal Extras MC $15k | Amazon Store $10k|Arrival $12.7k | Smile Gen $7.25k | Dillard's $5k| West Elm $4k| Express $3.05K | Mypoints.com Visa $4.5k | Freedom Visa $1k| Amex Surpass $1k
Frequent Contributor
Sparkz1920
Posts: 271
Registered: ‎08-09-2009

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy

I'm just trying to stay on Amex's good side

No CL increases....I'll let them do it themselves

Plus, I got enough overall credit anyway to where my util is super low

Starting Score: 601
Current Score: 670
Goal Score: 700


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New Contributor
Brandnick
Posts: 85
Registered: ‎11-07-2012

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy


Cdnewmanpac wrote:

My thoughts (long, sorry):

1. The concept of a relationship with a corporation (with all due respect to Citizens United) is a joke. They exist to make money. You represent an opportunity to make money. They, in turn, offer a service or product you find valuable and are either willing to pay for (annual fee/interest) or provide them a mechanism to make profit (usage fees). There is no relationship until you reach the income/asset level that entitles you to private banking services. Even then, you are just a route to a different form of profit. The only reason to ever get a card is because it provides you with some benefit. If it stops providing that benefit, you should stop using it. To me, worrying about what a company "thinks" or "feels" or "wants" is anthropomorphism at its worst. 

2. While the 3x cli at 60 days is a nice feature (and I suspect is a legacy from their computer algorithms having been developed for charge cards), I agree it is just a feature and not a guarantee. That being said, I see no value in trying to base your spending pattern on an artificial attempt to get a cli. Use the card for the reasons you got it. If you got it just for gas and groceries, use it for gas and groceries. There are just as many people who got the 3x cli after just doing that as there are those who ran large amounts through it every month. I personally had a 3k spend in 3 months to get the bonus points, so combined with a very low limit (1k), I had to pay multiple times/month to keep under the limit. Is that normal for me? No. Did I do it to get the 3x cli? No. I did it to get the bonus. I also got the cli to 3k, but if I never get another bump, the card will still be useful to me.

3. While I respect Credit Scholar's point conceptually, I don't know if the evidence bears it out. There are too many examples of people putting 150/month on the card and still getting clis for it to be purely valid. The algorithms Amex uses are incredibly complex. The idea that something as simple as spending amount per month over two months would reliably predict cli success seems mathematically unlikely to me.

4. This forum is an exception. Most Americans are not rebuilding their credit, while I supect the majority of users of these forums is. The average credit score nationwide is still around 720. I doubt the average score of forum members is that high. The strategies employed or recommended here are always going to be exceptional because of that. 

5. The "relationship" you build with a Zync (now green, I guess) isn't a relationship, its data. Some people have very high credit scores combined with high income. They don't need to game the system because they are who the system was designed for. Some have high credit scores and low income. They will have to play some games to overcome the impact of their low income. Getting GE backed cards or NFCU, etc. is a way to boost credit limits through gamesmanship in order to take advantage of products that were initially designed for people with higher income. By the same token, there are some who have high incomes but poor credit scores (such as myself). In order to get products that are useful to us, we also have to game the system. So I got a Zync and gave Amex 6 months of data. This data helped Amex make decisions about me that didn't just center on my credit scores (bad) and income (ok). This wasn't a "relationship", Amex isn't going to buy me flowers or let me get to 2nd base. But that doesn't invalidate the strategy. I think my spending habits match what Amex targets. I think that seeing that will make Amex more likely to give me useful products despite my poor score. I think many other rebuilders on this forum could benefit in the same way.

6. "High income" on this forum (and in American generally) is a misnomer. If your household income is less than 350k/year, you are not wealthy. If your household income is 100k to 350k, you are (the incredibly shrinking) middle class. I know nobody likes to be told they are poor, so I won't continue the example. Call yourselves working class, whatever. The point is that there are lots of products designed for the working poor (Walmart, for example) and many designed for the middle class (Chase Freedom, discover more, etc.) and there are some products designed for the wealthy. Amex may have expanded their base to remain profitable, but at their core they are still designing products for the wealthy. If you are not in that group, it is reasonable to expect you will need to game the system to some degree to get the products that work for you. 

7. I think a huge amount of the issues that arise around Amex products on this forum (including the cli issue) come from a fundamental disconnect: a group of people who are rebuilding their credit or just starting out, most of whom earn less than 100k and don't travel extensively for work are constantly discussing an issuer whose products are primarily designed for business travelers with excellent credit whose income routinely exceeds 100k (often by a lot). As long as that is the case, there will be "disappointed in amex" threads and "I hate amex, they didn't give me 3x cli" threads and "what is the value of amex green", etc.


this should be posted for all to read . Congrats on your thoughts and  words I couldn't have said it any better

Current Score: 771 - 11/21/2012/ Amex Pull
Late Payment: 0 / Collections: 0
AAOA: 6.3 Years

"My Scores Yesterday or Last week or even Last month has no value when applying for credit today. The value is not in my score but the information in my credit file. Once the information is good the score will follow"
Frequent Contributor
AF_23
Posts: 288
Registered: ‎02-06-2012

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy

[ Edited ]

Ive learned they must really hate people who carry balances on their revolvers. I had 7 dollar balance that reported, good scores and around 15% overall util across all cards. Got the letter today with the denial. 

Valued Contributor
navigatethis12
Posts: 1,881
Registered: ‎01-24-2012

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy


Cdnewmanpac wrote:


A lot of people on here seem to worship American Express and believe they can do no wrong. I am not sure where this comes from, but the relationship part is spot on. No one really can know what you have to do to get a large credit limit increase, because every situation is different. Every lender takes many things into consideration, but usually after six months of being with them, you can get very nice increases.

 

The Zync is not necessary to be able to get a credit card with American Express and I really wish people would say that. American Express did not know me at all and had no problem giving me a 10000 limit (twenty month long credit history). I have clean credit, but still, the Zync or any other card that serves no purpose to a person is not needed. I have carried a 3000 (0%) balance for five months and am not concerned about them not liking it.

 

Income depends on how many people it is supporting. 150000 is not a lot, but if it is only one person, that is sufficient income. Many people do not take into account that their income may not support high limits, but they do not want to hear it.

 

American Express should not think so highly of themselves after they scrambled to become a bank so that they could beg for taxpayer's money. In my opinion they have no right to judge any applicant and should be happy that people even still want to do business with them.

Valued Contributor
Imhotrodcrazy
Posts: 1,385
Registered: ‎03-11-2009

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy


navigatethis12 wrote:

Cdnewmanpac wrote:


A lot of people on here seem to worship American Express and believe they can do no wrong. I am not sure where this comes from, but the relationship part is spot on. No one really can know what you have to do to get a large credit limit increase, because every situation is different. Every lender takes many things into consideration, but usually after six months of being with them, you can get very nice increases.

 

The Zync is not necessary to be able to get a credit card with American Express and I really wish people would say that. American Express did not know me at all and had no problem giving me a 10000 limit (twenty month long credit history). I have clean credit, but still, the Zync or any other card that serves no purpose to a person is not needed. I have carried a 3000 (0%) balance for five months and am not concerned about them not liking it.

 

Income depends on how many people it is supporting. 150000 is not a lot, but if it is only one person, that is sufficient income. Many people do not take into account that their income may not support high limits, but they do not want to hear it.

 

American Express should not think so highly of themselves after they scrambled to become a bank so that they could beg for taxpayer's money. In my opinion they have no right to judge any applicant and should be happy that people even still want to do business with them.


I agree for the most part.  While I have a BCE card, I rarely use it anymore, mainly because it is not accepted at many places I go.  My main go to Bank, ( always has been and always will be ), is US Bank.  I have no problems with their cards or loans and I have all of my accounts with them, including my mortgage.  In addition, I know all of the people at my local branch, which I have been going to for about 25 yrs now.  I like to know the people I bank with personally. 

FICOS
TU 802 7/11/14
EX 797 7/6/14
EQ 748 7/10/14

Cash+ 19.5 / Amex 16.5 / US Bank loc 15k / Chase Freedom 10.6k
Member
bs1234
Posts: 23
Registered: ‎11-14-2012

Re: People need to re-think Amex's 3x CLI policy


Imhotrodcrazy wrote:


I agree for the most part.  While I have a BCE card, I rarely use it anymore, mainly because it is not accepted at many places I go.  My main go to Bank, ( always has been and always will be ), is US Bank.  I have no problems with their cards or loans and I have all of my accounts with them, including my mortgage.  In addition, I know all of the people at my local branch, which I have been going to for about 25 yrs now.  I like to know the people I bank with personally. 


I guess this is an issue of personal preference. 

 

When you say that "always has been and always will be" US Bank, that is relationship-like language, with a rather large bank.   (I assume you don't quite mean it, if US Bank decided to charge fees equal to 99% of your deposit, you might decide to reevaluate!) 

 

My preference is to spread my assets/risks, and have things at different banks and different card issuers.   Also, knowing people personally isn't at all important to me, I prefer the rates and products of internet banks.    What really does knowing these people gain you?  Do they have that much discretion when you ask for special treatment?

 

In recent months, I've only been at two places that don't take Amex but do take Visa/MC, but that probably depends on store type and geography.


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