What cards do you think the AF is really worth it?

[mongstradamus]

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@bigblue7722 wrote:
Well I went a little crazy yesterday and applied for the csp. I already had the freedom I don't want an Amex and bam I was approved with a 5k line . I added my wife on the get the au bonus. I just gotta spend the 3k now to get the bonus.

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Welcome to the CSP family :-)

[mongstradamus]

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@bch238 wrote:

It depends on how you use any given card, and you have to consider the opportunity cost that using a new card will have against your current cards.

I spend about $3,500/mo on my CSP (not including non-recurring expenses).  

Of that, about $900 is in direct paid bills = 900 points

$1,200 in dining = 2400 points

$300 (avg) in airfare = 600 points

$100 (avg) in the UR Mall = 400 points (avg)

$1,000 general spend = 1,000 points

So, about 5,300 points per month, or about 64,000 annually.

Add to that my kids' school another 20,000 points per year and vacation spending about 30,000 points (with bonus categories)

So I figure about 114,000 points per year, face value $1,114 with multiplier ranging 1 to 2.5 depending on how they are spent. for a  reasonable expected value of $2,200. Compare this to my $95 AF. 

Marriott Rewards Premier card gives automatic Silver Elite status, so that's an additional 2 points per dollar spent at Marriotts.  Then there is 5 points for using the card, and the standard 10 points for Marriott Rewards membership.  So, I earn 17 Marriott rewards points for ever dollar spent at the hotel using the card, but it's really only an additional 7 points per dollar attributable to the card.  My family stays at the Marriott perhaps 4x annually, spending about 1,300 each time.  So, 1300 x 4 x 7 = 36,400 Marriott additional points from using the MRP card.  If I spent it on the CSP instead, it would be 1300 x 4 x 2 = 10,400 UR points, which would be tranferrable 1:1 to Marriott, but which might be worth $200 with a different transfer partner.  I value the additional Marriott points earned with the Marriott card more than $200, plus there is the free night certificate (albeit Category 5 or lower), so the $85 fee is worth it.

My BCP easily pays for itself on groceries alone, so it's a no-brainer.  The Everyday card wouldn't work for me because I don't use AmEx often engough to get the bonus.  I swipe my BCP perhaps ten times per month.

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I was contemplating getting everyday, i just don't see myself as an big enough spender to warrant having both CSP and ED. I was contemplating seeing if i could PC my BCP to EDP , just continue to use it as my groceries card and see how that goes, but right now i can't even do that since amex doesn't allow for PC to everyday cards.

[gh17]

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@gh17 wrote:

I would never be comfortable with an annual fee, because then you often have a motive to spend more than you otherwise would so that the fee is worth it. 

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YMMV but my spend has nothing to do with my AF's.  I don't find simply avoiding AF's beneficial and consider total cost/benefit when doing my research.  AF's certainly play a part but there are many other things to consider as well.

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The thing is, if I did my cost/benefit analysis today and determined that an annual fee card would be worth it, I would need to keep up that same level of spending for it to continue to be worth it.  Going back to the Arrival+ vs. Fidelity cards, Fidelity will always offer 2% no matter what my spending, but Arrival+'s overall benefit to me is going to depend on whether I spend more or less than $44,500 on the card.  So if I spend $50,000 this year, the Arrival+ makes sense for me.  But if a few years down the road, I'm able to cut some expenses and now I only spend $40,000 a year, now the Arrival+ no longer makes sense.  So for me personally, there would be an incentive to continue my spending level of $44,500 instead of having an incentive to cut down my spending (even if I would have the means to cut down my spending and still live comfortably).

If your spending is completely independent of your annual fees, you risk running into a situation in the future where now your annual fee isn't worth its cost anymore if you start spending less.

Again, there are definitely situations where these cards make sense, but unless it's a case of yearly rewards that automatically pay for the annual fee (I think the Southwest card has something like this?), in many situations there is an incentive to maintain high levels of spending.

[gh17]

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@watch44 wrote:

But with all this number crunching, you all are forgetting the cost of doing business with lower tier companies like FIA card services and opening and maintaining another deposit account in order to use the Fidelity Amex. Sometimes math tends to make somewhat more complex decisions seem simpler than it is.

Sometimes a fee is simply for convenience. And there is no way to say such a fee is always too much for everyone. For instance, I for one find the entire concept of maximizing rewards with a CSP + Freedom + Chase checking account combo bordering on obsessive compulsiveness on the order of clipping coupons for hours every week to save 20 bucks. My time is worth more than that. 

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That's actually a great point.  One reason why I don't have a Fidelity Amex is because I recently switched from Fidelity to Vanguard for my IRA and have no interest in reopening a Fidelity account.  Sure, I could open a cash management account, but for the extra 0.5% over Capital One (push the cost of the new account on my credit), it's not worth it to me at the moment.  I'm also planning on PCing my BofA to Better Balance Rewards soon, but I recently closed my BofA checking, and I have no interest in moving direct deposits around and reopening the account to get the extra $5 a quarter.

I can definitely buy the argument of paying an annual fee for convenience.

[gh17]

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@watch44 wrote:

But with all this number crunching, you all are forgetting the cost of doing business with lower tier companies like FIA card services and opening and maintaining another deposit account in order to use the Fidelity Amex. Sometimes math tends to make somewhat more complex decisions seem simpler than it is.

Sometimes a fee is simply for convenience. And there is no way to say such a fee is always too much for everyone. For instance, I for one find the entire concept of maximizing rewards with a CSP + Freedom + Chase checking account combo bordering on obsessive compulsiveness on the order of clipping coupons for hours every week to save 20 bucks. My time is worth more than that. 

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That's actually a great point.

I'm probably going to PC my BofA card to Better Balance Rewards soon.  However, I recently closed my BofA checking.  I don't have any interested in reopening the BofA checking and moving direct deposit around to get around maintanence fees all just for the extra $5 a quarter.

Likewise, I recently switched my IRA from Vanguard to Fidelity, and I have no interest in reopening a Fidelity IRA or even cash management account to take advantage of the extra 0.5% over my Capital One card, even though it would make sense from a cash back perspective.

So I can buy the paying for convenience argument.

[gh17]

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@watch44 wrote:

But with all this number crunching, you all are forgetting the cost of doing business with lower tier companies like FIA card services and opening and maintaining another deposit account in order to use the Fidelity Amex. Sometimes math tends to make somewhat more complex decisions seem simpler than it is.

Sometimes a fee is simply for convenience. And there is no way to say such a fee is always too much for everyone. For instance, I for one find the entire concept of maximizing rewards with a CSP + Freedom + Chase checking account combo bordering on obsessive compulsiveness on the order of clipping coupons for hours every week to save 20 bucks. My time is worth more than that. 

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That's actaully a great point.

I'm probably going to PC my BofA card to Better Balance Rewards soon.  I recently closed my BofA checking, and I have no interested in reopening the account/moving direct deposit around to get around maintenance fees all for the extra $5 a quarter.

Likewise, I recently moved my IRA from Fidelity to Vanguard.  I don't really feel like opening up a new account at Fidelity just to get the extra 0.5% over my Capital One card, even though it would make sense from a cash back perspective.

So I can definitely buy the paying for convenience argument.

[gh17]

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@watch44 wrote:

But with all this number crunching, you all are forgetting the cost of doing business with lower tier companies like FIA card services and opening and maintaining another deposit account in order to use the Fidelity Amex. Sometimes math tends to make somewhat more complex decisions seem simpler than it is.

Sometimes a fee is simply for convenience. And there is no way to say such a fee is always too much for everyone. For instance, I for one find the entire concept of maximizing rewards with a CSP + Freedom + Chase checking account combo bordering on obsessive compulsiveness on the order of clipping coupons for hours every week to save 20 bucks. My time is worth more than that. 

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That's actaully a great point.

I'm probably going to PC my BofA card to Better Balance Rewards soon.  I recently closed my BofA checking, and I have no interested in reopening the account/moving direct deposit around to get around maintenance fees all for the extra $5 a quarter.

Likewise, I recently moved my IRA from Fidelity to Vanguard.  I don't really feel like opening up a new account at Fidelity just to get the extra 0.5% over my Capital One card, even though it would make sense from a cash back perspective.

I also have yet to using the student loan redemption option for my Forward card over Amazon, so I've only been getting 4% instead of 5%.

So I can definitely buy the paying for convenience argument.

[gh17]

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@watch44 wrote:

But with all this number crunching, you all are forgetting the cost of doing business with lower tier companies like FIA card services and opening and maintaining another deposit account in order to use the Fidelity Amex. Sometimes math tends to make somewhat more complex decisions seem simpler than it is.

Sometimes a fee is simply for convenience. And there is no way to say such a fee is always too much for everyone. For instance, I for one find the entire concept of maximizing rewards with a CSP + Freedom + Chase checking account combo bordering on obsessive compulsiveness on the order of clipping coupons for hours every week to save 20 bucks. My time is worth more than that. 

---

That's actually a great point.

I'm probably going to PC my BofA card to Better Balance Rewards soon.  I recently closed my BofA checking, and I have no interested in reopening the account/moving direct deposit around to get around maintenance fees all for the extra $5 a quarter.

Likewise, I recently moved my IRA from Fidelity to Vanguard.  I don't really feel like opening up a new account at Fidelity just to get the extra 0.5% over my Capital One card, even though it would make sense from a cash back perspective.

I also have yet to use the student loan redemption option for my Forward, so I've been getting 4% through Amazon instead of 5% cash.

So I can definitely buy the paying for convenience argument.

[gh17]

Test... I keep posting and my post keeps disappearing five seconds after I post it, so I'm seeing if it's something specific to that message or if I'm just somehow banned from posting...

Edit - think it was because I was quoting a post with a link?  But not sure.

[gh17]

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@watch44 wrote:

But with all this number crunching, you all are forgetting the cost of doing business with lower tier companies like FIA card services and opening and maintaining another deposit account in order to use the Fidelity Amex. Sometimes math tends to make somewhat more complex decisions seem simpler than it is.

Sometimes a fee is simply for convenience. And there is no way to say such a fee is always too much for everyone. For instance, I for one find the entire concept of maximizing rewards with a CSP + Freedom + Chase checking account combo bordering on obsessive compulsiveness on the order of clipping coupons for hours every week to save 20 bucks. My time is worth more than that. 

---

That's actually a great point.

I'm probably going to PC my BofA card to Better Balance Rewards soon.  However, I recently closed my BofA checking.  I don't have any interested in reopening the BofA checking and moving direct deposit around to get around maintanence fees all just for the extra $5 a quarter.

Likewise, I recently switched my IRA from Vanguard to Fidelity, and I have no interest in reopening a Fidelity IRA or even cash management account to take advantage of the extra 0.5% over my Capital One card, even though it would make sense from a cash back perspective.

I also have yet to do the student loan redemption for my Forward and instead get only 4% back in Amazon codes instead of 5% back in cash on my dining purchases.

So I can buy the paying for convenience argument.