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Senior Contributor
longtimelurker
Posts: 5,385
Registered: ‎04-22-2013

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!


youngandcreditwrthy wrote:
Amex is higher up on the credit-chain. It took me like 5 years to get one, but once you're in, you're in!


I think that is what is in dispute!  Clearly Amex charge cards are easier to get than several other cards discussed here, and often Amex credit cards will follow (as everyone advises here).   Now it's certainly possible that not every underwriter is that familiar with backdating, the ease of getting the card, the 3x CLI stuff, but I would expect over time they will.

 

And professionally, an underwriter shouldn't be influenced by the decisions of others, the fact that bank X made a certain decision shouldn't (overly) sway my decision.

Most active cards: Amex BC ($50K), Cap One QS ($33K) Fidelity Amex ($20K)
Others: CSP, Freedom, Chase Amazon, Cap One QS, Penfed Plat Rewards (x2), Citi TY Preferred, Citi Dividend, Citi AA Plat Select, Citi Forward, Amex BCE, Amalgamated Bank, Sallie Mae, Cash Plus
Scores May 14: EQ 848, EX 833, TU 841 (Jul)
Frequent Contributor
TheConductor
Posts: 491
Registered: ‎07-24-2012

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!

[ Edited ]

This raises an interesting question.  

 

Suppose OP gets tired of having to explain the "credit before 18" situation....will Amex ever change a member date to be later at a member's request?

 

I wonder if anyone will even be able to report having experience trying this, since this is pretty much the only situation I can imagine where one would ever want the date to be later.

Starting: EQ 622 (myFICO 7/7/12), EX 696 (TU FAKO 8/14/12), TU 621 (CK TransRisk 7/24/12)
Current: EQ 686 (myFICO 7/14/14), EX 694 (Prosper 7/17/14) , TU 691 (WalMart 7/11/14) Goal: 700+ x3
My Wallet: Amex BCP $30k, Chase CSP VS $12.2k, Amex Zync NPSL (> 10k), C1 Venture VS $5k, Amex SPG $4.5k, Barclaycard Apple V $2k, Walmart (Store) $1.6k, Chase Freedom V $1100, BoA Cash Rewards V $500, Best Buy Rewards MC $500
My Loans: Prosper $25k/36mo
Valued Contributor
navigatethis12
Posts: 1,881
Registered: ‎01-24-2012

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!


longtimelurker wrote:


I think that is what is in dispute!  Clearly Amex charge cards are easier to get than several other cards discussed here, and often Amex credit cards will follow (as everyone advises here).   Now it's certainly possible that not every underwriter is that familiar with backdating, the ease of getting the card, the 3x CLI stuff, but I would expect over time they will.

 

And professionally, an underwriter shouldn't be influenced by the decisions of others, the fact that bank X made a certain decision shouldn't (overly) sway my decision.


This how I feel. It's not as if they can't see the credit report and make a decision for themselves. The names of the lenders or limits they gave should be irrelevant. What I would look at would be payment history and the amount of the payments.

Established Contributor
cashnocredit
Posts: 958
Registered: ‎07-18-2009

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!


longtimelurker wrote:

youngandcreditwrthy wrote:
Amex is higher up on the credit-chain. It took me like 5 years to get one, but once you're in, you're in!


I think that is what is in dispute!  Clearly Amex charge cards are easier to get than several other cards discussed here, and often Amex credit cards will follow (as everyone advises here).   Now it's certainly possible that not every underwriter is that familiar with backdating, the ease of getting the card, the 3x CLI stuff, but I would expect over time they will.

 

And professionally, an underwriter shouldn't be influenced by the decisions of others, the fact that bank X made a certain decision shouldn't (overly) sway my decision.


Let me suggest the following reason an Amex account is a good one to have,

 

There is an attribute Amex accounts have that goes beyond credit scores. Amex card holders, on average, spend far more on their cards. Banks don't make money from FICO scores. At least not directly but only from reduced losses and FICO is generic, population average based risk indicator.  Amex has developed their own metrics incorporating FICO but taylored to high spenders more than the average consumer.  Even though Amex may, at times, be flexible on FICO scores they still have an exceptionally low default rate for very high spending customers. They achieve this because they have decades of experience and it is their primary business. It would be more than reasonable for an analyst to see an Amex account as a stamp of approval by an experienced, successful, creditor for a customer that is likely to spend considerably more than most and has a relatively low risk of default.

 

 

I have reestablished credit over the last couple years
so my moniker is, well, rather out of date.

WM Discover $1800, WF Plat 12k, Chase Freedom Siggy15k, Amex Plat (60k H/B), Citi AA EWMC 25k
Valued Contributor
my-own-fico
Posts: 1,141
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!


TheConductor wrote:

 

This raises an interesting question.  

 

Suppose OP gets tired of having to explain the "credit before 18" situation....will Amex ever change a member date to be later at a member's request?


 

And even when the young person does explain the "credit before 18" situation, there's this nagging dilemma of his well-meaning parents potentially having cut up his AU card to protect him from wild and crazy spending and them from sucking it all up. The lender might say that there's no proven responsible use of credit and no income of his own. There's merely a puffed up credit score, which any lender is free to disregard.

 

When it comes to wishful thinking vs reality, wishful thinking wins.
Valued Contributor
navigatethis12
Posts: 1,881
Registered: ‎01-24-2012

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!


cashnocredit wrote:

longtimelurker wrote:

youngandcreditwrthy wrote:
Amex is higher up on the credit-chain. It took me like 5 years to get one, but once you're in, you're in!


I think that is what is in dispute!  Clearly Amex charge cards are easier to get than several other cards discussed here, and often Amex credit cards will follow (as everyone advises here).   Now it's certainly possible that not every underwriter is that familiar with backdating, the ease of getting the card, the 3x CLI stuff, but I would expect over time they will.

 

And professionally, an underwriter shouldn't be influenced by the decisions of others, the fact that bank X made a certain decision shouldn't (overly) sway my decision.


Let me suggest the following reason an Amex account is a good one to have,

 

There is an attribute Amex accounts have that goes beyond credit scores. Amex card holders, on average, spend far more on their cards. Banks don't make money from FICO scores. At least not directly but only from reduced losses and FICO is generic, population average based risk indicator.  Amex has developed their own metrics incorporating FICO but taylored to high spenders more than the average consumer.  Even though Amex may, at times, be flexible on FICO scores they still have an exceptionally low default rate for very high spending customers. They achieve this because they have decades of experience and it is their primary business. It would be more than reasonable for an analyst to see an Amex account as a stamp of approval by an experienced, successful, creditor for a customer that is likely to spend considerably more than most and has a relatively low risk of default.

 

 


Couldn't the analyst just look at the previous payments to determine the amount of money the client spends? I really don't get why the thing about American Express cardholders spend more keeps getting thrown around on here and by American Express when they are trying to get merchants to accept their cards. Even if they do have a low default rate, it doesn't mean that someone who gets approved by them cannot default. It just seems that on here people put American Express on some unrealistic pedastal in the credit world. I don't know about the past, but they are not that "elite" now. They heavily advertise their prepaid card that they partnered  with Walmart for, of all places. I personally spend very little at all on American Express cards.

Senior Contributor
longtimelurker
Posts: 5,385
Registered: ‎04-22-2013

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!

Well, it appears to be objectively true that an American Express card holder DOES spend more than Visa/MC cardholders.   My suspicion though is that this is skewed by very heavy spending by some of the longer-term card members, who did get Amex when it was more exclusive/prestigous/boss etc.   I don't know if this will continue if the approval criteria have been downgraded.

Most active cards: Amex BC ($50K), Cap One QS ($33K) Fidelity Amex ($20K)
Others: CSP, Freedom, Chase Amazon, Cap One QS, Penfed Plat Rewards (x2), Citi TY Preferred, Citi Dividend, Citi AA Plat Select, Citi Forward, Amex BCE, Amalgamated Bank, Sallie Mae, Cash Plus
Scores May 14: EQ 848, EX 833, TU 841 (Jul)
Established Contributor
cashnocredit
Posts: 958
Registered: ‎07-18-2009

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!

[ Edited ]

navigatethis12 wrote:

cashnocredit wrote:

longtimelurker wrote:

youngandcreditwrthy wrote:
Amex is higher up on the credit-chain. It took me like 5 years to get one, but once you're in, you're in!


I think that is what is in dispute!  Clearly Amex charge cards are easier to get than several other cards discussed here, and often Amex credit cards will follow (as everyone advises here).   Now it's certainly possible that not every underwriter is that familiar with backdating, the ease of getting the card, the 3x CLI stuff, but I would expect over time they will.

 

And professionally, an underwriter shouldn't be influenced by the decisions of others, the fact that bank X made a certain decision shouldn't (overly) sway my decision.


Let me suggest the following reason an Amex account is a good one to have,

 

There is an attribute Amex accounts have that goes beyond credit scores. Amex card holders, on average, spend far more on their cards. Banks don't make money from FICO scores. At least not directly but only from reduced losses and FICO is generic, population average based risk indicator.  Amex has developed their own metrics incorporating FICO but taylored to high spenders more than the average consumer.  Even though Amex may, at times, be flexible on FICO scores they still have an exceptionally low default rate for very high spending customers. They achieve this because they have decades of experience and it is their primary business. It would be more than reasonable for an analyst to see an Amex account as a stamp of approval by an experienced, successful, creditor for a customer that is likely to spend considerably more than most and has a relatively low risk of default.

 

 


Couldn't the analyst just look at the previous payments to determine the amount of money the client spends? I really don't get why the thing about American Express cardholders spend more keeps getting thrown around on here and by American Express when they are trying to get merchants to accept their cards. Even if they do have a low default rate, it doesn't mean that someone who gets approved by them cannot default. It just seems that on here people put American Express on some unrealistic pedastal in the credit world. I don't know about the past, but they are not that "elite" now. They heavily advertise their prepaid card that they partnered  with Walmart for, of all places. I personally spend very little at all on American Express cards.


Having Amex or  First Premier CCs doesn't mean you will or will not default but it will statistically matter in the case of a large group of consumers. Same goes for an 800 v 500 FICO. They are just statistical estimates and not certainties.

 

Amex's prepaid card is irrelevant to immediate credit, except perhaps in a status sense. Since Amex has detailed spend history on these they could combine this info with future thin file credit customers to parse out the good risks. That's a good business opportunity.

 

 Now that I'm older I could care less about Amex "status" or "eliteness."  I care about two things:

  1. Can I spend using the cards for whatever I need each month?
  2. Do the card's rewards/bennies fit my particular lifestyle

I doubt merchants care about Amex "status" either though there is no doubt they do look at Amex members as being more likely to drop business on them. Amex markets that idea to merchants heavily.  Amex also markets their "status" to consumers. The manipulation of people by appeal to "status" is a well established psych principle. For more academic works on this check out Cialdini's classic work "Science of Influence."

 

As for usability, I have spent, on a single purchase with Amex, more than all my CLs added together. And it was not a gradual buildup of charges but over twice my previous max. The ability to do that is what I love about Amex.  I also liike airport lounges :smileyhappy:

 

Back when I was younger and just wanted to get lucky I would have (and did) use an Amex. These days I have a more expansive view of what I want in a partner,  I would more likely than not just use my most "regular" looking credit card. At least the first few times out.


As for checking a credit report to see spending it's a little harder than looking at balances since one can't tell (aside from recent fine grain reporting some lenders report) whether a balance is PIF or carried. Historically, program analytics would look at the variance in month to month balance changes to estimate the probability of being a PIF customer. With Amex charge cards there is no question.

I have reestablished credit over the last couple years
so my moniker is, well, rather out of date.

WM Discover $1800, WF Plat 12k, Chase Freedom Siggy15k, Amex Plat (60k H/B), Citi AA EWMC 25k
Valued Contributor
navigatethis12
Posts: 1,881
Registered: ‎01-24-2012

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!


cashnocredit wrote:


Having Amex or  First Premier CCs doesn't mean you will or will not default but it will statistically matter in the case of a large group of consumers. Same goes for an 800 v 500 FICO. They are just statistical estimates and not certainties.

 

Amex's prepaid card is irrelevant to immediate credit, except perhaps in a status sense. Since Amex has detailed spend history on these they could combine this info with future thin file credit customers to parse out the good risks. That's a good business opportunity.

 

 Now that I'm older I could care less about Amex "status" or "eliteness."  I care about two things:

  1. Can I spend using the cards for whatever I need each month?
  2. Do the card's rewards/bennies fit my particular lifestyle

I doubt merchants care about Amex "status" either though there is no doubt they do look at Amex members as being more likely to drop business on them. Amex markets that idea to merchants heavily.  Amex also markets their "status" to consumers. The manipulation of people by appeal to "status" is a well established psych principle. For more academic works on this check out Cialdini's classic work "Science of Influence."

 

As for usability, I have spent, on a single purchase with Amex, more than all my CLs added together. And it was not a gradual buildup of charges but over twice my previous max. The ability to do that is what I love about Amex.  I also liike airport lounges :smileyhappy:

 

Back when I was younger and just wanted to get lucky I would have (and did) use an Amex. These days I have a more expansive view of what I want in a partner,  I would more likely than not just use my most "regular" looking credit card. At least the first few times out.


As for checking a credit report to see spending it's a little harder than looking at balances since one can't tell (aside from recent fine grain reporting some lenders report) whether a balance is PIF or carried. Historically, program analytics would look at the variance in month to month balance changes to estimate the probability of being a PIF customer. With Amex charge cards there is no question.


I don't really agree with statistics. I hate that because other people have done something that it is assumed I will do it(male drivers under 25!). With the prepaid, I was just saying that prepaid cards aren't something an elite company should have. Yes they do market the "American Express cardholders spend more" as soon as you ask them for information. They can't end a telephone call without claiming that. A lot of people seem to like being able to charge 20,000 on a charge card after having it two months, and that is a good thing. However, I prefer to know exactly how much I can spend and not pay an annual fee, so charge cards aren't for me.

 

I'm 23 and if I ever do go on a date(don't see that happening), I won't be paying for him, but if I were, I would use the card that got me the most cashback. If that happened to be a card from Bad Credit Bank with a $100 limit and 1000 APR, oh well. If he really would judge me on a card, then I don't want to continue getting to know him.

 

When I look at Experian it shows the payments for everyone except Citi. Are you saying that lenders don't see this when they look at it?

 


longtimelurker wrote:

Well, it appears to be objectively true that an American Express card holder DOES spend more than Visa/MC cardholders.   My suspicion though is that this is skewed by very heavy spending by some of the longer-term card members, who did get Amex when it was more exclusive/prestigous/boss etc.   I don't know if this will continue if the approval criteria have been downgraded.


Don't forget the corporate cards that have hundreds of thousands pushed through a year. Even if it is true that American Express people spend more(which I doubt), it still shouldn't sway an underwriter one way or another.

Established Contributor
cashnocredit
Posts: 958
Registered: ‎07-18-2009

Re: denied a CC due to AMEX Backdating!!

Navigate,

 

You raise a couple points that don't get talked about enough.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean about statistics. Also, you know far more about credit and how it works than I did when I was twice your age. While I did have CC when I was young I stopped using them and just used a company card for bizz or my personal debit card for other transactions.By the time I retired I had fairly large savings and retirement accounts. Enough so that I didn't use credit for anything including cars or homes. I had one debit card and did checks or, if  required, bank wires for anything that exceeded the debit card limit. My credit report had a paid lien (from being flaky) and a few CA from utilities I had not properly shut off when I moved. I had no trade lines, just baddies. It was bad enough that I didn't even know about the CAs until I first pulled a credit report after concluding that if I wanted to rent cars or hotel rooms without a song and dance at each place I needed to get a credit card. My credit reports were indistinguishable from a homeless person yet I'm comfortably retired and don't need to work for the rest of my life. So my FICO score, a statistic, was completely, 100% wrong.  The problem is lenders have to go by statistics. They may be wrong in the case of a specific person but they are powerful predictors of groups. Another issue is that for people that saved and decreased their use of credit as they aged (which is the prudent thing to do) if they didn't use credit cards or other credit at all they get put in the same category as people just out of high school.

 

BTW, my first Amex was back in '75 and I was quite taken by the status thing. At least for a few months but then I found I didn't use it very often and largely for exactly the reason you mentioned - not knowing what your actual CL is.  This no longer bothers me. I've learned that credit cards are now judged transaction by transaction in real time and a bank can shut you down at any time if they don't like your spending or whatever other stuff triggers their analytics.

 

Anyway, congratulations. You are way ahead of where I was at that age.

I have reestablished credit over the last couple years
so my moniker is, well, rather out of date.

WM Discover $1800, WF Plat 12k, Chase Freedom Siggy15k, Amex Plat (60k H/B), Citi AA EWMC 25k

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