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Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion

Frequent Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


ABCD2199 wrote:

trusty wrote:

ABCD2199 wrote:

If you didn't pay to read a headline, it's a biased fake news point made by yellow journalists.  Doesn't matter the political persuasion, it's 100% BS, 100% of the time.

 

There are 250 million adults in the US.  $1 trillion is $1,000,000 million / 250 = $4000 credit card debt per adult.

 

Did you just really utter the words, "fake news?"

 

Let's please not fall into the trap of uttering ad hominem, derogatory, political dogma, like "fake news" and "yellow journalism" to address things that we simply do not agree with. Just use your words to tear it apart, if it's so objectively warranted.

 

Is the figure in the posted article factually incorrect? If so, please correct the record with references to the actual facts, if in fact there exists a misprint that needs to be pointed out.

 

Let's try to keep these discussions out of the political gutter, befitting proper forum decorum. 


It's not politics, it's news.  I should mention I don't vote, never voted, and don't believe in political discussions or debates.  My father raised me properly and taught me that lobbying is what we do to make change and get real news out of private individuals and corporations.

 

News is entertainment, not fact.  It's why people actually listen to actors from Hollywood who have degrees in theater, versus actually spending some time themselves reading disclosures, profit and loss statements, or hiring an analyst to give them the run down on what is actually going on in the world, lol.

 

Watching CNN, Fox, NPR, whatever -- it's no different than VH1 or the Hallmark channel.  Heck, I don't even own a TV or subscribe to any of the yellow journalist periodicals who want to tell me about the health value in gluten, lolol.  Hey kids, eat more sugary cereal because The Rock likes it, too!

 

If it had advertising to support it, it's entertainment value only.  Don't read and trust things backed by ads, that's for sure.

 

As for backing it up with facts, I did.  Read my original post again.  The yellow journalists are screaming "$1 TRILLION OMG OMG" and I said "uhh, $3000 per adult."

 

$3000 per adult is not untenable and not disturbing.  In fact, it feels low because I see people posting about owing $70,000 here, so it actually means the mean balance on credit cards is probably WAY LOWER than $3000 per adult with some small subset running up huge balances.

 

No news here.  Nothing but biased clowns with useless degrees trying to scare people into buying pudding pops and watch the new disney adventure movie.


 

You just misstated the figure from your own retort. Is it $4000 or $3000? If you cannot even keep the facts straight for 5 minutes... it's even more useless trying to subjectively use name calling and derogatory commentary to argue a point.

 

I don't disagree with some of your points. But, when you call a writer names like, "biased clown," it defeats your whole retort.

 

Getting emotional or hysterical in your commentary does not make its reasoning sound.

 

Also, claiming that a good education contributes to the problem is purely specious. One of the reasons people become educated is to be able to participate in dignified debate.

 

Message 11 of 25
Senior Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


trusty wrote:

 

Also, claiming that a good education contributes to the problem is purely specious. One of the reasons people become educated is to be able to participate in dignified debate.

 


Sounds like someone here is projecting, and it isn't me.  

 

Education and debate do not go hand in hand.   To me, generally speaking, someone who has to brag about their degree doesn't really have much else to brag about.  That's strictly my opinion, but I certainly would trust someone whose income relies on duping people with advertisements.  I don't trust a degree holder any more than I trust anyone else -- if all they have is their degree, that's not worth much.  Life experience, proven skills, a strong CV/resume -- those are things worth trusting.

 

I find it pretty uncouth, actually, and I find it sad that folks trust the media circus sideshows.  I'm glad none of my friends believe in talking heads; probably why we're friends in the first place.

 

If you want the truth, it doesn't come for free, and it certain doesn't have ads sponsoring it.  It comes from performing due diligence, and not using public free databases, either.

 

Credit card debt is not a problem.  I'd say housing debt is a problem only because people are extending themselves beyond 20% down and 2.5X income.  But credit card debt isn't an issue, not with all of the rewards incentives to using cards, and most people not realizing that even if you PIF every month, your credit card utilization still gets reported in aggregate to the journalists.

 

 The GDP is about $20 trillion.  Credit card debt is barely 5% of that. Not worried at all.

 

National debt is $19.8 trillion -- THAT is worrisome, but that's not consumer action, that's a pit of worry.  I am thankful I won't be paying off much of that the rest of my life, lol.

Message 12 of 25
Frequent Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


ABCD2199 wrote:

trusty wrote:

 

Also, claiming that a good education contributes to the problem is purely specious. One of the reasons people become educated is to be able to participate in dignified debate.

 


Sounds like someone here is projecting, and it isn't me.  

 

Education and debate do not go hand in hand.   To me, generally speaking, someone who has to brag about their degree doesn't really have much else to brag about.  That's strictly my opinion, but I certainly would trust someone whose income relies on duping people with advertisements.  I don't trust a degree holder any more than I trust anyone else -- if all they have is their degree, that's not worth much.  Life experience, proven skills, a strong CV/resume -- those are things worth trusting.

 

I find it pretty uncouth, actually, and I find it sad that folks trust the media circus sideshows.  I'm glad none of my friends believe in talking heads; probably why we're friends in the first place.

 

If you want the truth, it doesn't come for free, and it certain doesn't have ads sponsoring it.  It comes from performing due diligence, and not using public free databases, either.

 

Credit card debt is not a problem.  I'd say housing debt is a problem only because people are extending themselves beyond 20% down and 2.5X income.  But credit card debt isn't an issue, not with all of the rewards incentives to using cards, and most people not realizing that even if you PIF every month, your credit card utilization still gets reported in aggregate to the journalists.

 

 The GDP is about $20 trillion.  Credit card debt is barely 5% of that. Not worried at all.

 

National debt is $19.8 trillion -- THAT is worrisome, but that's not consumer action, that's a pit of worry.  I am thankful I won't be paying off much of that the rest of my life, lol.


 

C'mon man, you're the one that wrote all of that regrettable political stuff above. No one else made you do it. Just own it.

 

Stating that all news is "fake news," is just as worthless as not saying anything at all. It only points to where you have chosen to get your news from. The dregs of political discourse.

 

No one that has an education in civilized society would say, "fake news," about something that wasn't fake... or call an article, "yellow journalism," that merely points out a statistical fact about the debt figure.

 

You could have said the things you stated in your last two paragraphs, without all of the incendiary political commentary.


We get your drift. But, you lose credibility by inserting all of that unfortunate jazz into your discourse.

 

At that point, when you go down the list of talk radio talking points... the only people that will agree with you are, hardline political hacks, and conspiracy theorists.

 

Every fact based news article is not a grand conspiracy to brainwash the public. Try to take each topic on its own, without all the hysterical defamatory commentary... please.

Message 13 of 25
Senior Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


trusty wrote:

C'mon man, you're the one that wrote all of that regrettable political stuff above. No one else made you do it. Just own it.

 

Stating that all news is "fake news," is just as worthless as not saying anything at all. It only points to where you have chosen to get your news from. The dregs of political discourse.

 

No one that has an education in civilized society would say, "fake news," about something that wasn't fake... or call an article, "yellow journalism," that merely points out a statistical fact about the debt figure.

 

You could have said the things you stated in your last two paragraphs, without all of the incendiary political commentary.


We get your drift. But, you lose credibility by inserting all of that unfortunate jazz into your discourse.

 

At that point, when you go down the list of talk radio talking points... the only people that will agree with you are, hardline political hacks, and conspiracy theorists.

 

Every fact based news article is not a grand conspiracy to brainwash the public. Try to take each topic on its own, without all the hysterical defamatory commentary... please.


There is no "credibility" on an anonymous forum, period.  One can not develop credibility anonymously on a forum like this.  That's never my intent, if it was, I wouldn't be anonymous.

 

Every news article is indeed part of a grand conspiracy called "entertainment".  It isn't some nefarious plan to brainwash the public, it's just a method for extracting wealth from gullible people.  Conspiracies don't have to be evil, but they do tend to be profitable.  I'm part of many of them myself becaues I do lobby and I do invest in companies that advertise to gullible people.  Probably 90% of my net worth is based solely on extracting wealth from gullible people -- and yes, the products I invest in advertise on "news" programs.

 

Frank Mott defined yellow journalism as:

 

  1. Big scary headlines like "OMG $1 trillion in credit card debt"
  2. excessive use of unnecessary pictures or drawings (see original article, lol, credit cards in pockets, stacks of credit cards, useless pictures)
  3. quotes from "experts" (see original article, Stephen Caprio and Matt Schulz, "experts" who you've never heard of)
  4. sympathy with the weak man versus the powerful (note the comment about low income households in the link)
  5. comic strip involvement (the original article didn't use this, thank goodness!)

So 4 of the 5 yellow journalism warning flags are there on this article, and every other article about this same topic, yet not one of them mentioned the $20 trillion in debt your politicians stuck you with forever.  How interesting.

 

If people want to believe headlines, more power to me, really.  I'll find a way to take a few pennies per click myself, thankyouverymuch, when the ad for the Furby Christmas 2019 movie reminds them repeatedly that it's the one they want their kids to see and then want the toys for.

 

And if you don't believe me, just read some of the headlines that Hearst and Pullitzer pushed on the masses and compare them to clickbait headlines today on every news site.  It's drivel, low brow entertainment, meant to replace substance of relationship with digitally enhanced emotions "we" as a society lack in our real lives because we're so fixated on media, media, media.

 

I don't need to convince you though, but there are those who may read this and nod their head or find themselves surprised that they're so easily distracted by headlines that don't matter.

Message 14 of 25
Frequent Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


ABCD2199 wrote:

  

I don't need to convince you though, but there are those who may read this and nod their head or find themselves surprised that they're so easily distracted by headlines that don't matter.

 

A lot of what you're saying is preaching to the choir. We get it. Not everything is earth shattering. But, I'm pretty sure I didn't see any, "OMG," anywhere in the article. You see... when you exaggerate and misquote unnecessarily, go from, "$4000 per," to, "$3000 per;" and then try to make the claim that all news is either, "fake," based on propoganda, or purely entertainment, it only speaks to a lack of respect for the facts.

 

Facts and statistics are important, unless we're talking op-eds. Let's try to be consistent in how we evaluate fact-based articles. Sure, we can always argue that another fact or statistic may have more relevance on the subject... but, THAT is the basis for varying opinion within those discussions. The minute that all we have is, ad hominem, name-calling, or stating that the whole thing must be some grand conspiracy based on politically motivated propoganda... it's no longer a civil discourse.

 

I agree that the national debt is excessive. But, I don't see how it directly relates to individual credit card debt... when people don't nearly have a dog in the hunt in what should otherwise be called, "good governance."

 

You just need an edit button in your posts. Some of the stuff you say hits home. I agree that an advanced degree, in and of itself, doesn't make someone better or smarter than anyone else. But, that's not what's being debated here. Also, being educated is always a positive. Conversely, being under-educated or learned only on the streets, or better yet, in some backwoods cult... that is a negative. Either way, when you start going in with all of the tinfoil hat stuff... and then calling a fact-based article, "fake news," it's an instantaneous loss of all credibility in any intellectual discussion.

 

Let's try to reserve calling news articles, "fake," that actually spew false data. The only statistics that can be proven false here, have been your own fuzzy math.

Message 15 of 25
Regular Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion

There is 325 million people in this country. But, how many adults and how many adults that have credit cards? I’d love to know what the actual debt is to credit card holders. So all this math from people is fuzzy. We just have no idea the amount of debt per person from this article. But we do have statistics on average debt per holder. Right now it averages around 24k per person. Which is far different from 3k or 4K spouted in here. 

 

Looking at this from a macro perspective, people have dug out from the last resession and have their credit recovered. The question is are people in the process of overextending themselves again? Is a bubble forming again? Who knows. But humans are good at making the same mistakes over and over again. Since most people are now into cash back, and that’s meant for people who carry no balances and pay no interest, I tend to believe people are going down the same path with credit cards... but just an opinion and observation for debate.



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Message 16 of 25
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Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


Benmarkley3 wrote:

There is 325 million people in this country. But, how many adults and how many adults that have credit cards? I’d love to know what the actual debt is to credit card holders. So all this math from people is fuzzy. We just have no idea the amount of debt per person from this article. But we do have statistics on average debt per holder. Right now it averages around 24k per person. Which is far different from 3k or 4K spouted in here. 

 

Looking at this from a macro perspective, people have dug out from the last resession and have their credit recovered. The question is are people in the process of overextending themselves again? Is a bubble forming again? Who knows. But humans are good at making the same mistakes over and over again. Since most people are now into cash back, and that’s meant for people who carry no balances and pay no interest, I tend to believe people are going down the same path with credit cards... but just an opinion and observation for debate.


 

Here are some statistics that indicate the amount of adults that carry credit card debt is less than 60 million. But, the report from the year before indicated the number of individuals carrying debt, from 2016 to 2017, was under 50 million. Which means the number of people carrying credit card debt went up by approximately 10 million people, year over year. So, it's possible that the number of debtors has gone up again, since the latest trillion dollar figure. 

 

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/average-credit-card-debt-household/

 

Nevertheless, the figure used over the past two years for average credit card debt has been on the order of $16,000, per individual carrying debt.

 

There's more useful data there, as well.

 

I would just say that "average" numbers are all relative. However, the difference between a trillion dollars of credit card debt and several trillions more of national debt... is that, insofar as revolving debt is concerned, debtors become debtors solely of their own volition.

 

I don't know about you, but nobody has sent me a bill for, "national debt," and... paying my taxes several years running is somehow not making a dent in this supposed national debt. So, I say let's leave the legislative budgeting, or lack thereof, to those presiding over civic discourse; or rather, getting paid not to. That's a whole separate issue. 

 

But, credit card debt? First world problem, possibly indicative of spending money that isn't forthcoming. Definitely indicative in today's economy of paying an inordinate amount of interest on that debt... which is troubling. Conversely, ten years ago, the credit card debt was high, but the interest was extremely low. The economy still crashed - primarily due to the bubble caused by the much larger subprime mortgage repackaging as triple-a scam, and the insurance fallout behind it.

 

Every issue has to be taken as having an impact. Yet, it's difficult to foresee, in this period of deregulation, equity markets somehow regulating themselves into not reselling illegitimate debt products masquerading as triple-a, all over again.

Message 17 of 25
Regular Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


trusty wrote:

Benmarkley3 wrote:

There is 325 million people in this country. But, how many adults and how many adults that have credit cards? I’d love to know what the actual debt is to credit card holders. So all this math from people is fuzzy. We just have no idea the amount of debt per person from this article. But we do have statistics on average debt per holder. Right now it averages around 24k per person. Which is far different from 3k or 4K spouted in here. 

 

Looking at this from a macro perspective, people have dug out from the last resession and have their credit recovered. The question is are people in the process of overextending themselves again? Is a bubble forming again? Who knows. But humans are good at making the same mistakes over and over again. Since most people are now into cash back, and that’s meant for people who carry no balances and pay no interest, I tend to believe people are going down the same path with credit cards... but just an opinion and observation for debate.


 

Here are some statistics that indicate the amount of adults that carry credit card debt is less than 60 million. But, the report from the year before indicated the number of individuals carrying debt, from 2016 to 2017, was under 50 million. Which means the number of people carrying credit card debt went up by approximately 10 million people, year over year. So, it's possible that the number of debtors has gone up again, since the latest trillion dollar figure. 

 

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/average-credit-card-debt-household/

 

Nevertheless, the figure used over the past two years for average credit card debt has been on the order of $16,000, per individual carrying debt.

 

There's more useful data there, as well.

 

I would just say that "average" numbers are all relative. However, the difference between a trillion dollars of credit card debt and several trillions more of national debt... is that, insofar as revolving debt is concerned, debtors become debtors solely of their own volition.

 

I don't know about you, but nobody has sent me a bill for, "national debt," and... paying my taxes several years running is somehow not making a dent in this supposed national debt. So, I say let's leave the legislative budgeting, or lack thereof, to those presiding over civic discourse; or rather, getting paid not to. That's a whole separate issue. 

 

But, credit card debt? First world problem, possibly indicative of spending money that isn't forthcoming. Definitely indicative in today's economy of paying an inordinate amount of interest on that debt... which is troubling. Conversely, ten years ago, the credit card debt was high, but the interest was extremely low. The economy still crashed - primarily due to the bubble caused by the much larger subprime mortgage repackaging as triple-a scam, and the insurance fallout behind it.

 

Every issue has to be taken as having an impact. Yet, it's difficult to foresee, in this period of deregulation, equity markets somehow regulating themselves into not reselling illegitimate debt products masquerading as triple-a, all over again.


That’s part of my worry, I’ve read that 40% of adults don’t have a credit card. So we are all in the other 60%. Of those some of us are pay in full people. So we add to nothing. But even in here we see people paying medical bills with credit cards and slowly getting themselves into debt again. And people in here are more credit educated than the general population. And there has been articles about the credit industry again packaging subprime card holders and reselling their debt. The same junk as was done before the recession. This time it just isn’t complicated so far by housing bubble at the same time. And with deregulation the same scrupulous people will take advantage again I fear. Every year the amount of debt and % of people who default is creeping up. This is all interesting to debate. I just wish people would learn lol.



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Message 18 of 25
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


Benmarkley3 wrote:


That’s part of my worry, I’ve read that 40% of adults don’t have a credit card. So we are all in the other 60%. Of those some of us are pay in full people. So we add to nothing. But even in here we see people paying medical bills with credit cards and slowly getting themselves into debt again. And people in here are more credit educated than the general population. And there has been articles about the credit industry again packaging subprime card holders and reselling their debt. The same junk as was done before the recession. This time it just isn’t complicated so far by housing bubble at the same time. And with deregulation the same scrupulous people will take advantage again I fear. Every year the amount of debt and % of people who default is creeping up. This is all interesting to debate. I just wish people would learn lol.


 

People will never learn. We get away with whatever is legal, and some illegal or unprecedented things... no matter how unethical they are.

 

It's pretty clear that what went on that led up to the housing bubble was totally fraudulent... but, inexplicable that nobody ended up in jail.

 

You're telling me that officially rating mortgages as triple-a, to resell them, that are actually beyond subprime; and then, being bribed under the table to do it... shouldn't carry a minimum sentence in Leavenworth? I cannot believe they actually got away with that blatant scam, in light of all the untold damages. I mean, they completely crashed the system! How do you get away with that, when anyone can connect the dots, by simply following the money. - There was a heck of a lot of money that changed hands. Money doesn't just disappear like it did. The markets crashed because sophisticated thieves got away with all the money.

 

All we can do is try to capitalize off of all the hysteria; and make sound investments... based on these known, greed-based market tendencies.

 

People think the economy is doing well, right now. Which, is usually just based on how they are doing, individually. In some fields, the economy is booming. But, I know that when I see meal deal specials in just about every restaurant, and otherwise no patrons in the seats... I know that the overall economy must have forgotten to bring along a good portion of the populace.

 

There are just as many signs that the economy is in a weird place, with some people doing extremely well, while the "average" consumer still struggles living check to check.

 

Ten years ago... it seemed like everyone was cash flush, at one point in time. So, in a backwards way, it may actually help that there are warning signs right now, that may prevent another bubble. But, I think it's a misnomer that it was the housing "bubble" that caused the crash. In fact, it was a not very well known false debt rating scam surrounding the equity markets, and the subsequent bogus tranches of debt being overvalued and resold many times over.

 

So, as long as there aren't complete scams going on with extreme amounts of of money... we shouldn't crash for that reason again. I've read some of those articles, as well. I'm not confident about making markets operate above board. Rather, I'm just focusing on how I can stay above water, despite all of the schemes going on with everyone else's money. It would be easy if we could just place a bet that people will continuously try to come up with new scams. Now, if we could just narrow our investments down to that... that's a lock, through and through. But, because there are so many schemes going on, we cannot figure out who the next Lehman is going to be.

Message 19 of 25
Regular Contributor

Re: Credit Card Debt Over $1 Trillion


trusty wrote:

 


People will never learn. We get away with whatever is legal, and some illegal or unprecedented things... no matter how unethical they are.

It's pretty clear that what went on that led up to the housing bubble was totally fraudulent... but, inexplicable that nobody ended up in jail.

You're telling me that officially rating mortgages as triple-a, to resell them, that are actually beyond subprime; and then, being bribed under the table to do it... shouldn't carry a minimum sentence in Leavenworth? I cannot believe they actually got away with that blatant scam, in light of all the untold damages. I mean, they completely crashed the system! How do you get away with that, when anyone can connect the dots, by simply following the money. - There was a heck of a lot of money that changed hands. Money doesn't just disappear like it did. The markets crashed because sophisticated thieves got away with all the money.

All we can do is try to capitalize off of all the hysteria; and make sound investments... based on these known, greed-based market tendencies.

People think the economy is doing well, right now. Which, is usually just based on how they are doing, individually. In some fields, the economy is booming. But, I know that when I see meal deal specials in just about every restaurant, and otherwise no patrons in the seats... I know that the overall economy must have forgotten to bring a long a good portion of the populace.

There are just as many signs that the economy is in a weird place, with some people doing extremely well, while the "average" consumer still struggles living check to check.

Ten years ago... it seemed like everyone was cash flush, at one point in time. So, in a backwards way, it may actually help that there are warning signs right now, that may prevent another bubble. But, I think it's a misnomer that it was the housing "bubble" that caused the crash. In fact, it was a not very well known false debt rating scam surrounding the equity markets, and the subsequent bogus tranches of debt being overvalued and resold many times over.

So, as long as there aren't complete scams going on with extreme amounts of of money... we shouldn't crash for that reason again. I've read some of those articles, as well. I'm not confident about making markets operate above board. Rather, I'm just focusing on how I can stay above water, despite all of the schemes going on with everyone else's money. It would be easy if we could just place a bet that people will continuously try to come up with new scams. Now, if we could just narrow our investments down to that... that's a lock, through and through. But, because there are so many schemes going on, we cannot figure out who the next Lehman is going to be.


I am in the under $25k income bracket, and with cash back now being the trend to get suckers to spend, I find it so easy if you have discipline to use credit cards and make money. It’s a short term free investment for me. I put every single normal monthly bill I can on my credit cards (maximizing cash back %) and pay off every month. If I can’t pay cash for it I don’t buy it. I only run $1k thru my credit card each month and get around $300 free cash per year. I mean the only reason they can do this is because they know most people are stupid and eventually end up in debt. 

 

If if an emergency comes up there are things called low interest personal loans for us that live paycheck to paycheck. I save 5% for a savings, and life is best it could be for someone on disability due to dialysis. So literally everyone with an income can leverage their credit. Amount you make only limits the ultimate size of loans one can take out. 

 

So many people on here give great advise and are willing to help. So few even on here accept that help. There’s an expert in here for any income level. In the end it’s just sad because people are ultimately dumb... 



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Message 20 of 25