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Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!



opsrex wrote:
The burden is on the dealership/financial institution to prove that they did all due dilligence to comply with the terms of the Patriot Act. By pulling a hard inq. they are ensuring that they are in compliance. They will not get in trouble for running a credit check on you because after 9/11 we were told that sacrifices would be necessary. Whether you agree or disagree is totally irrelevant. The fact is that they can and will use a cr to cover their azz and in the Bush administration who can blame them for being overly cautious? They know that while some may not like having their credit run, when it comes to cya, it does not matter what you or I want. The dealership is protecting their own self interest, and if it was my business, I would probably be doing the same.

how is violating one federal law to comply with another federal law a cya move.
 
as for the methods used to combat terrorism, one observation. we were attacked by people who hate us for simply being alive and we have done a whole lot to make them even less happier with us and we haven't been attacked since. seems to me somebody is doing something right.
Message 51 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

Have you read the FCRA?  No one can pull a hard inquiry on a consumer without an application for credit. A credit report has nothing to do with verfying identity.  Please stop with this.  Unless the customer specifically asks that a dealership promote financing on their behalf that dealership has no right to pull a credit report.  Nothing the the PA says anything about pulling a credit report since a credit report is not a verifiable way to check identity.  Anyone can say they are Brammy simply by presenting my SSN and the minute I get that unauth inq on my file, I'm asking for my 1k. As long as I am smart enough to read the paperwork and know I have not auth anyone to do so.


Message Edited by Brammy on 10-04-2007 08:49 PM
Message 52 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!



@opsrex wrote:
Section 314 of the Patriot Act requires that financial institutions take steps to deter money laundering. Even though it is a cash transaction, a hard pull would satisfy the requirements as far as the lender is concerned in that they took the necessary steps to comply with the requirements of section 314. That is my interpretation anyway. A civil liberties attorney may disagree.




I think there's a special circle down in Hell for the politicians who concocted and approved the Patriot Act. The punishment for denizens of that circle is to be abducted by space aliens and probed and sampled and dissected and scanned...for eternity. Sans anesthesia or lubricant...

At least I hope that's whats in store for them.
Message 53 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!



TheNewWorldMan wrote:

The punishment for denizens of that circle is to be abducted by space aliens and probed and sampled and dissected and scanned...for eternity. Sans anesthesia or lubricant...

At least I hope that's whats in store for them.

didn't they do that to a politician in an airport in minnesota already?
Message 54 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

DH is in the car business (he actually runs dealship security but has been in the business for 30+ years as a salesman, manager, dealer principal,etc)... and I just asked him.
 
NO credit pull for a cash payment.  They do a five liner
 
Name
Address Home
Address Work
DOB
SSN
 
and yes, it gets reported to the IRS
Message 55 of 66
opsrex
Valued Member

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

Brammy, don't yell at me for telling you what car dealers are doing. Is it right? No. Are they doing it for the reasons I stated? Yes they are. One thing that I have learned in life is that there is a big difference between "can't" and "not supposed to". Just because they are not supposed to run a credit check without your permission does not mean they can't do it. When it comes to the Patriot Act, courts are just now starting to make rules to reign things in. Whether you like it or not (and I have much dealership experience on the operations side) it is done. So, Brammy, instead of stating your opinion as fact, you should have a cashier's check made out for a new car purchase and start hitting the bricks and then come back and tell us your experiences rather than shouting at me for telling you how some dealerships are in fact operating (rightly or wrongly). BTW, if I sound irritated with you, it is because I am. The tone of your posts suggests that I am defending this practice when in fact if you read my posts, the opposite is true.
Message 56 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

Was this truly a "cash"transaction? Check or cashier's check or bills? I work at a dealership and we do do it to satisfy the terrorist requirement and to ensure whoever we are releasing the vehicle to (spot deliveries) are less to run off with our car and the funds never materializing. (Cashiers check can now be canceled too!)
Message 57 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!



opsrex wrote:
Brammy, don't yell at me for telling you what car dealers are doing. Is it right? No. Are they doing it for the reasons I stated? Yes they are. One thing that I have learned in life is that there is a big difference between "can't" and "not supposed to". Just because they are not supposed to run a credit check without your permission does not mean they can't do it. When it comes to the Patriot Act, courts are just now starting to make rules to reign things in. Whether you like it or not (and I have much dealership experience on the operations side) it is done. So, Brammy, instead of stating your opinion as fact, you should have a cashier's check made out for a new car purchase and start hitting the bricks and then come back and tell us your experiences rather than shouting at me for telling you how some dealerships are in fact operating (rightly or wrongly). BTW, if I sound irritated with you, it is because I am. The tone of your posts suggests that I am defending this practice when in fact if you read my posts, the opposite is true.

 
I am quoting you this time so you know that I am speaking to you. I don't see anywhere in this thread where I yelled at anyone.  Tho I did use caps to stress a point.
 
Fact: 1.  Anything can be misquoted or misused to serve a purpose.  I've even seen it done with the Bible.
2. The law, federal, (under the FCRA) clearly states that this is overstepping the bounds.
3. Nothing in the patriot act requires car dealers to pull credit.


Message Edited by Brammy on 10-05-2007 08:03 AM

Message Edited by Brammy on 10-05-2007 08:17 AM
Message 58 of 66
ozgirl
Regular Contributor

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

For those of you who have not read the Patriot Act, I encourage you to do so. While it is cumbersome—it is important to know about this legislation that was pushed through so quickly in the wake of 9/11. Supporters of the Patriot Act claim its intent is to stem the flow of laundered money which funds terrorism. I suspect most of the people who support the act have not taken the time to really read it in its entirety.

Before the Patriot Act, we had the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970, which established the ground rules for reporting and detecting money-laundering activities. The Patriot Act amends and expands on the Bank Secrecy Act. Under the Patriot Act the definition of financial institution was broadened to include entities that were not strictly financial institutions. The list is not too long and for the most part makes sense and includes entities such as casinos with annual revenue in excess of 1 million, commodities brokers/dealers, dealers in precious metals, stones and jewelry. It also includes: The US Postal Service, businesses engaged in vehicle sales (cars, boats, planes), Insurance Companies and the like. (By the way, in the Bank Secrecy Act they refer to Leather Goods Stores/dealers as ‘High Risk.”)

The Patriot Act does require that financial institutions have Customer Identification Programs in place. To meet this requirement, the financial institution must obtain/verify the customers name, address, social security number, date birth and occupation. Under the Bank Secrecy Act provisions, transactions over a certain dollar amount, which meet certain criteria, must be documented by the financial institution and in some cases reported to the government. These transactions include:
• Transactions > 2000 IF SUSPICIOUS
• Cash in or out transactions >10,000 in the same day
• Money Orders or Travelers Checks in the amount of $3000 - $10000 to the same person in the same day
• Money Transfer of $3000+ to the same customer in the same day

IMPORTANT: Cash does not include a check drawn on the payer’s own account such as a personal check regardless of the amount!

According to www.privacy.org, a credit check is a valid means of meeting the requirements of identity verification under the Patriot Act. However, it does not say ANYWHERE that a credit report must be run on anyone purchasing a vehicle for cash. Additionally, www.Privacy.org “suggests” that you may want to check your credit report as you would not want to be declined credit because of identity theft or CONSIDERED A PERSON OF SUSPICION! That line “PERSON OF SUSPICION” is what really captured my attention! As a side note, Privacy.org also suggests reviewing your ChexSystem report.

Besides all of the above information, something we REALLY NEED to be aware of is PATRIOT ACT II. On 13 December 2003 (the day Hussein was captured). This little piece of the Patriot Act pie was passed. This is the SCARIEST part of the Patriot Act as it grants the FBI the authority to PROBE YOUR FINANCIAL RECORDS and DOCUMENTS even if the Federal Government does not suspect your involvement in criminal activity or terrorism. The Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2004 funds all intelligence activity while expanding and redefining the term “Financial Institutions” to include businesses “whose cash transactions have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax or regulatory matters. Under this expansion of the Patriot Act, the FBI can go to a financial institution and request records both financial and non-financial using a National Security Letter. The financial institution has to turn over these documents. The FBI does not have to go before a judge to get a subpoena to obtain these records or demonstrate probable cause. Even more frightening is that the National Security Letter comes with an attached GAG ORDER to prevent the financial institution from informing the client that the records have been surrendered to the FBI. The financial institution faces criminal penalties if it divulges the surrendering of the documents and records.

So, why is this important to a group of people who are busy trying to rebuild credit and their financial life? Consider this, every time you apply for a job, buy real estate or engage in any transactions with entities that meet the broadened definition of a financial institution, you are putting yourself out there for scrutiny by someone who may for whatever reason, feel your history makes you suspect. Who knows what may be considered “suspect”—maybe you had a minor brush with the law, issues regarding child support or spousal support, a criminal record, a history of being a STUDENT PROTESTOR! Any of these things could make you the target of an investigation. It may sound cliché—but this is Un-American! How did we allow our congress to pass the Patriot Act II by voice vote to avoid individual accountability?, Your rights are not being protected and you are certainly no safer from terrorism because the government now has unbridled access to your personal records.
Message 59 of 66
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Car Dealer Said they LEGALLY have to do a Hard Inquiry Even if paying cash!

ozgirl - Thank you for this very well written and FACTUAL post.

I vote we lock this thread.
Message 60 of 66
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