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New Contributor
Posts: 144
Registered: ‎06-01-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics

Very well written Tuscani...funny thing is, I just reported to Transunion that I had JC Penny reporting two 30 day lates. One in 2000, and another in 2001.  Which I really was, but I don't think that if they contact JC Penny, that they will even respond back as them being late. JC Penny keeps giving me CLI. They have in the last year plus increased my limits over 2k. Like I am going to spend over 2k at JC Penny. Personally I don't think a late should be shown over 24 months. But thats just MPO.
 
I will post how it turns out. I just did it about an hour ago, so will take a little while.
 
My Eq when up 12 points-yea!!! I disputed some old inquiries.
Valued Member
Posts: 44
Registered: ‎06-07-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics


Tuscani wrote:
The ethics involved with disputing items on your credit report is a hot topic. I have seen many different opinions on this and would like to share my thoughts.


Is it ethical for someone to report 1 or 2 late payments for 7 years? Sure, it's legal, but

is it ethical for them to continue to hamper your efforts to improve your life and learn

from past mistakes? Only you can decide...no one else.


CRAs have to be able to verify it by the original records to report it and if they can't,

then they can't report it. Disputing is the avenue afforded us to request verification. You

are simply asking them to check their records to confirm.


IMO, It doesn't matter one bit what we know or don't know. We aren't reporting anything. The

law is clear that if the CRA is to report an account, they must be able to verify it with

the furnisher (among other things). If the account, lates, etc cannot be verified off it

goes. There is no section of the FCRA that states that a consumer's personal knowledge of an

account has any bearing on it's reporting or the CRA's requirement to verify. Doesn't

matter.


There is no ethical dilemma about disputing accounts that you personally know are reporting

correctly. What you know/don't know isn't relevant. (Try to have a non-reporting positive

account put ON your reports for an idea of how little what you know matters). :smileyhappy: All you are

doing is demanding the CRA prove that they can verify what they are reporting (no more, no

less).


Making false statements is another matter, saying "I was never late" when you in fact were

isn't appropriate nor is it necessary. Instead of claiming you were never late, insist the

CRA prove that the lates that they report are accurate. "Please provide evidence that this

information is accurate and belongs on my report" accomplishes the same thing as "I was

never late" without making any statements on your part.








excellent post, but a day late...

I just sent off a GW letter to an OC asking if they would consider taking off a late payment. I never realized that it could have been a mistake by the CRA. However, looking at the ONE late payment, it was on an account that has been open 10 years. The late was back in Sept 2000. I just assumed it was valid an never considered it may have been an error on the part of the CRA, even though there were no other blemishes on my CR from that time period.

Tuscani, you are indeed one of the most knowledgabe on the topic of credit. Thanks for your sharing of expertise.

Peace
Senior Contributor
Posts: 4,635
Registered: ‎03-11-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics

Someone recently posted about a GW attempt with Cap 1. The OP called and spoke with someone at Cap 1 who retorted, "Well, you can go ahead and dispute it" or words to that effect. The OP did dispute it on the basis of the Cap 1 rep giving the subtle message of "Dispute it and we won't verify it". Gone. This seems to be a common MO for Cap 1 and probably a few other OCs.
 
Is it any different from GW or PFD deletes any number of folks here and elsewhere have obtained? I don't think it is. The words and mechanics might be slightly different, but the end result of the adverse TL being deleted was the same.
 
The only difference is in either actively deleting an adverse TL or not verifying an adverse TL. Hubris would seem to be in play here. Pride can help, but it can also hurt. Taking pride in doing good work tends to yield better quality in whatever one does. Being prideful can hurt one when one needs to show a little humility, compassion, or goodwill. Contrition and not pride are what go into a GW, PFD or recon. Prideful OCs I suspect would rather lose money than get something because they have to give a little something, and the little something (of a deleted TL) costs them nothing.
 
Very few people obtain a CC with the premeditated intent to default. Anyone contemplating this knows there are plenty of easier ways to commit fraud. I suspect that's how ID theft came about. A guy home alone scheming about how to get multiple IDs, multiple CCs on each ID, max 'em out and abscond with the ill-gotten gain. Suddenly, hmmm, I'll use some poor schmoe's ID and good credit to get credit in his name and cash in. Much easier.
 
Turn on the TV and tune in to A&E, History Channel, Discovery, TLC, et al. It's always very enlightening to hear about the creative ways in which the criminal mind works. But don't let the euphoria you feel get the best of you. You will undoubtedly conclude, and even exclaim aloud, "I coulda done better than this guy." Remember, the authorities can make all kinds of mistakes, but the con man cannot afford one.
 
I think most of the ethical issues surrounding credit and debt begin with questionable practices of OCs and CAs. The CAs put it over the top with their abusive and harassing techniques, but OCs have always been more than a little complicit in granting credit hoping for that ideal debtor.
 
Who is the ideal debtor? Well, in terms of the corporate bottomline, the ideal debtor is one who maxes their CC, pays the minimum each month, and accumulates late and overlimit fees along the way. Forget to pay your bill? No problem, you can pay by phone and we'll only charge another $10 for the privilege. With luck, they'll do this for 2, 3 or 4 other CCCs. Their FICO scores will suck so under Universal Default their CC APR will be well over 20 percent. Build a house of cards, then tip it.
 
When the debtor defaults, cry havoc and let slip the dogs of collections. With luck, the OCs dogs will be the ones to extract meat from the carcass first.
 
Debtors who go thru this don't get here because of a plan to default--although many in collections seem to believe this and will defend their often illegal actions proudly as a necessary response.
 
In credit, taxes, the law, you name it. It's often not about what's just and ethical. It's about what you can or cannot prove.
 
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 9,252
Registered: ‎03-19-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics

Noah- Nice post.
Established Contributor
Posts: 565
Registered: ‎06-11-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics

this is all very interesting to read, and I agree the dispute process seems to be more about proof and verification then anything ethically related.

I see peoples point that maybe it is more ethical to write a GW letter then to just dispute late payments with no reason, but in the end the dispute process seems be the same, so what does it matter?

Like the PFD to Capital One situation mentioned earlier, I got a similar response from a creditor saying that I should dispute my late payments, and if the creditor does not respond within 30 days the payments will be automatically removed.

So in the end, you're basically asking someone to proove whether or not you did something. If they can't proove it, then by law, you did not do it.
Established Contributor
Posts: 578
Registered: ‎06-18-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics

This is an excellent post and the responses have been enlightening.  I see both sides, but I admit, I side with Tuscani, Noah and others.
 
In a country where for the most part you are nothing more than a 9 digit number, if you do not assert yourself you will get lost in the mix. 
 
Just MHO.
 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 440
Registered: ‎06-11-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics




trinigal wrote:
This is an excellent post and the responses have been enlightening.  I see both sides, but I admit, I side with Tuscani, Noah and others.
 
In a country where for the most part you are nothing more than a 9 digit number, if you do not assert yourself you will get lost in the mix. 
 
Just MHO.
 



AMEN trinigal....
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2,050
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics



trinigal wrote:
 
In a country where for the most part you are nothing more than a 9 digit number, if you do not assert yourself you will get lost in the mix. 


So does this justify fibbing on your income tax?  On the amount of household income on your AmEx credit card application?
 
IMvery,very,veryHO, there's a difference between asserting yourself to get what you are entitled to, and just doing whatever you can to get whatever you want.
 
-----------------
Bartender, bring another round of FICOtinis please!

9.4.2011: TU 805. EQ 815.
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 440
Registered: ‎06-11-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics



masdeocho wrote:


trinigal wrote:
 
In a country where for the most part you are nothing more than a 9 digit number, if you do not assert yourself you will get lost in the mix. 


So does this justify fibbing on your income tax?  On the amount of household income on your AmEx credit card application?
 
IMvery,very,veryHO, there's a difference between asserting yourself to get what you are entitled to, and just doing whatever you can to get whatever you want.
 



OH my Gosh people......we are all adults on here ( I think) and we all know right form wrong. Folks that intentionally fib on there income tax or cc application will have to reap what they sow because those two things can be audited.
 
I see no problem in pulling your credit report, seeing a collection item on there from 3 years ago and disputing it. Maybe you "thought" you paid it, or maybe you thought insurance took care of it, or maybe....just maybe you totally forget that you did actually go to the doctor that is trying to collect from you. When you dispute an item, you are not asking them to delete. That's what a PFD letter and goodwill letter is all about. IF the credit bureau chooses to delete, then BRAVO for you!!!!!!!!!
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2,050
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
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Re: Disputing and Ethics



flygirl wrote:
 
OH my Gosh people......we are all adults on here ( I think) and we all know right form wrong. Folks that intentionally fib on there income tax or cc application will have to reap what they sow because those two things can be audited.
 

So it's OK to dispute a collection that you know you owe because you can get away with it.
 


flygirl wrote:


I see no problem in pulling your credit report, seeing a collection item on there from 3 years ago and disputing it. Maybe you "thought" you paid it, or maybe you thought insurance took care of it, or maybe....just maybe you totally forget that you did actually go to the doctor that is trying to collect from you. When you dispute an item, you are not asking them to delete. That's what a PFD letter and goodwill letter is all about. IF the credit bureau chooses to delete, then BRAVO for you!!!!!!!!!


I agree, as I said in my inital post, that if you don't know or don't remember, by all means go ahead and dispute it. Fair enough.
 
But PFDs and GWs are completely different animals from disputes -- you are acknowledging that the debt or baddie is yours, but you are asking the creditor or CA to understand your personal situation and extend some human kindness by deleting it.  That's very different from disputing a debt that you know you owe with the sole intention of getting a deletion.

-----------------
Bartender, bring another round of FICOtinis please!

9.4.2011: TU 805. EQ 815.

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