Portfolio Recovery Associates LLC Harrassment?

[Anonymous]

I do not know if this constitues harassment but I am so shaken and actually cried after the call.

First off, long time lurker and now working on fixing my credit.

After sending out dispute letters and updating my information on my reports, I of course start getting calls. BRING EM ON

Well after asking for DV from PRA, they sent me some letters that simple said.. yeah we bought the debt, but little else. I do believe they sent me insufficent proof that both accounts are valid. One may be but the other makes no sense. I have always had bad credit and at once point had a Cap one Secured card for 200. They are saying there is another account with Cap one as well for 400. Hence REALLLY wanting that DV.

When I told the first gentleman this, he continued saying it was sufficient but started talking about a page I did not honestly receive. After expressing that what he was looking at I didn't have, I was shuffled to someone who was monitoring the call.

No one warned me, he just yanked my call and began talking over me. I was super confused and frazzled. He immediately started yelling and I do mean YELLING, WHO had your information and opened this account for 4 YEAAARS? I told him the is being aggressive and loud and to please stop, he continued telling me he was just asking a question. I told him that question is irrelevant to me wanting proper DV. He starts with the same question with the same tone and level of loudness. This continued till I asked for his manager.

Please believe me that I never spoke over a librarian tone and never cursed him out. I was legit trying to suss out what went wrong with the DV and try to get things on track. 

He claimed his manager was in a meeting and would be out in a few hours and would call me. I said I would wait. Magically 15 mins later and several check ins later, someoen answered the phone. She didn't seem to care how he treated be but wanted to get me to say I owed the debt OR that I was disputing. 

It felt like GROUND HOG DAY! I told her repeatedly I just want DV and can not dispute anything till I see that. She said fine but to request in writing ( of course I am going to do that ). 

Would what the guy did constitute as abuse? If so, what do I do?

[GCSCORE]

I think it was rude but I don't believe that it's abuse.   What I would do is formally request the DV (via email) and reference the conversation that you had with the last person *and* then I would also file a complaint over the lack of proper DV initally provided to you with the CFPB (google and it will pop up for you).  This is assuming that the debt really is not yours.  You could probably call Capital 1 to see if they have 2 accounts and/or pull your credit report.

[RobertEG]

It does not explicitly fall under the listed examples of harrassment or abuse set forth in FDCPA 806, but as stated in that section, violation is not limited to only the expressly provided examples of conduct.  Only a judge can rule on the facts of your case.  You can always bring civil action asserting violation of section 806 and obtain a ruling.

As for your prior DV, was it sent within 30 days after their dunning notice?

"FDCPA § 806.  Harassment or abuse

A debt collector may not engage in any conduct the natural consequence of which is to harass, oppress, or abuse any person in connection with the collection of a debt. Without limiting the general application of the foregoing, the following conduct is a violation of this section:

(1) The use or threat of use of violence or other criminal means to harm the physical person, reputation, or property of any person.

(2) The use of obscene or profane language or language the natural consequence of which is to abuse the hearer or reader.

(3) The publication of a list of consumers who allegedly refuse to pay debts, except to a consumer reporting agency or to persons meeting the requirements of section 1681a(f) or 1681b(3)1 of this title.

(4) The advertisement for sale of any debt to coerce payment of the debt.

(5) Causing a telephone to ring or engaging any person in telephone conversation repeatedly or continuously with intent to annoy, abuse, or harass any person at the called number.

(6) Except as provided in section 1692b of this title, the placement of telephone calls without meaningful disclosure of the caller's identity."

[Anonymous]

The threshold for disclosure ie "proof" is very very low.  In many states sending a copy of an old bill is enough. Sometimes they say "you owe us pay up"   and that is all they have to do.  However Portfolio Recovery is usually a junk debt debtor. as such 1) they won't usally follow you into arbittration if the orginal agreement allows it  2) they usually do not  have have any or very limited proof of the debt   With that being said what they want to do is 1) scare you into paying on your own  2) or get a default judgment because 3) they don't have enough proof to support "real" arbitration or "real court"    Becarefull you put in writing. Arbitration they avoid like the plauge and the most it costs you is usually $250 and for their side $30,000 give or take.   

[Anonymous]

Thank you all!

Just got an update from creditkarma, seems they deleted the account on at least one of my reports. 

I haven't heard back from them since making the CPB report but I am guessing that is their answer.

I know it may seem trivial and I honestly am not trying to just get out of paying but seriously that guy just went off on me for no reason. That should NOT be allowed. I guess someone pulled the call and agreed?

[Anonymous]

Btw I am the OP, for some reason it made me change my name but left the original with that name?

[TiggerDat]

(2) The use of obscene or profane language or language the natural consequence of which is to abuse the hearer or reader.

Being undually loud is an example which is accepted as abuse.  Also there is now an issue with how they word what they say and that can also be considered abuse.  Saying things like this is your debt and why don't you pay your debts, etc. can now also be used as a claim for abuse.  In your situation since you were asking for a proper DV then it would probably be considered as abuse!

I have to agree with the other person who said they won't go after you unless they know you have changed addresses and can get you into court without you realizing it by sending documents to your old address.  If any letter they send comes back with no forwarding address available, then they will go to court to get a default judgement.  They did this to me and they had help in this matter when they went to collect.  I was actually living overseas at the time, so it was very easy for them to get a default.  I transferred money to my Bank of America account and within one day they were attempting to garnish those funds.  How could they have known I had done this transaction?  The debt was from BofA, so I can only imagine!  I wouldn't be surprised that there isn't an agreement with them that even though BofA sold them the debt, they still got a payout at a later date too if they collected on it.  The day the money hit my account I then transferred it out of my BofA account and they had to try and figure out where it went.  This was a bit easy since BofA knew where it went.  I fortunately also used a good portion of the money to pay some bills and other things and also transferred some of it out of the other account.  They got some of it though.

It get's more interesting as the story continues.  I contacted them about settling the debt.  They offered me a settlement of the amount of money that was available on one of my CapOne accounts.  Not what was reported to the credit bureau as available, but what was actually available.  I contacted Capital One and asked them when was the last time I had called in about my account.  There were two calls on dates and times that I did not or could not have done!  I immediately place a password on my account and called PRA and told them about knowing they had called the bank and impersonated me.  I told them what I would give them and they would get nothing more or we could meet in court and discuss it and other things!  I also told them that my credit card company was more than willing to provide as much information as possible including the recorded conversations to any court of law upon my request and that the court would not have to subpoena the information, they would gladly give it up on my request alone.  They tried to say they would never do such a thing as impersonate me.  I said fine, I will see you in court.  They took my offer very quickly then!  The person I spoke with about this was a senior official at PRA, so while another lower person in the organization had already tried tactics like you mentioned, I knew what was in my arsenal to get it out of the way once and for all.  

I doubt many people will get as lucky as I was to discover what extent they will truly go to to try and get money from you!  However, once they mentioned the amount available on my credit card, I had to stop and think how they knew that amount.  I checked my credit report and found out there was no legal way they could have known.  After all they can't ask a credit card company how much availability I have even in the normal course of collecting a debt.  So what they did was completely illegal and they knew I knew and they thought I was more than ready to insure that if they did not accept my offer they would instead suffer serious consequences!  I told them the amount I was willing to pay was what I figure the value of my time was to not have to go to court, but even a penny more and there was no reason why I shouldn't.  What they didn't know is that if I had to go to court it would have cost me at least $1500 for filghts and hotels, since I was living in China! 

[Anonymous]

HOLY!!! I am so sorry that happened Tiger


I never thought they may send documents to my old address. I haven't lived at quite a few of those previously listed on my credit report for a few years.

They did delete the record from my credit report last night, should I still be concerned of a lawsuit ? The claimed amounts are 120 and 400 respectively. 

I am NOT above calling the Attorny General on them if they tried to pull that crap. 


I agree that him asking me WHO could have made the account constituted abuse. I wasn't saying it wasn't mine (yet) I was just asking for DV. I think for the one which wasn't on my report (400) they didnt have enough to put it on my report and he was just hoping I would cave.

[TiggerDat]

They can't simply send it to any old address if there is a way for them to find your address.  That is the key.  I was in China, so there was no forwarding address.  Some people when they get into trouble with credit card balances move and hide under a rock thinking if they can't find you, they can't do anything.  Or they think that if they hide they can't be harassed.  Either way they could be doing something worse by doing this.  

They can ask the post office for your forwarding address, they can search public records, and they can inquire to your credit report of any new reporting address.  I am sure that if they could simply get away with sending a subpoena to an old address they would do it all the time.  However I am also certain they have done that and gotten into trouble over it in lawsuits or other claims.  The only reason they are still around is because they can think of ways to find out information where they don't think they will get caught or harass people in ways they think they can get away with it.  Imagine if they harass 100 people and 10% pay the debt, they are better off than if they don't harass the people and 1% pay the debt.  They also know that only .01% of the people they call will make a complaint, or maybe even less because we are truly apathetic as a whole.

The shadiest of the companies are the ones that use Skype numbers or other numbers they can dispose of quickly.  I get calls from a debt from Sam's Club from long ago!  They will never give a correct address and the number they use changes all the time.  I know it isn't PRA, but instead someone in Detroit who owns a beauty parlor and collection agency on the side.  (Well maybe not exactly this, but something similar, they told me they could process my Visa card for the payment.  I asked what their Merchant number was so I could verify it legally, they wouldn't give it to me.  They also stopped calling.)  I also know that in the future I will get more of these calls for that account and another one from 25 years ago that resurfaces every so often.  

I actually just insult these people saying things like; 'Is that how your mother taught you to speak to people?', 'You must feel so big talking like that to people on the phone who could beat your a** in public, come over and I will teach you a lesson.', 'Take me to court, I will see you there and outside of it with a baseball bat.'  I give them addresses of where we can meet in Detroit and warn them that I might look white, but this is truly my hood and you will see so when you show up.  I also do comical things like make farting sounds, putting the phone near the blender or trash disposal, speak in Chinese, etc.  When I speak in Chinese I mix it up with fake Chinese words or English to get the point across.  Sometimes I simply talk in English with a Chinese, Spanish, French, or other languages tone.

What are they going to do?  Sue me for what I said?  The moment they step into a court to do so I can file against them.  

After all, why not have fun with it when you are absolutely certain there is nothing they can do to harm you.