What constitutes "proof" of a debt in Florida?

[Anonymous]

I have a collection item on my credit, a $30 or $40 phone bill from ATT with the debt collector being IC Systems.  I found out about it awhile ago and called but they refused to PFD.  I now signed up for EliminateIDTheft so I can get daily pulls and I am going to start disputing a bunch of stuff on my report (the collection, inaccurate addresses, etc.) that I discovered on CreditKarma.

I viewed a bunch of sample letters but it begs the question, what actually constitutes "proof" of a debt besides a comapny "saying" you owe it.  In my case with ATT I called to cancel the account.  Being the beheamoth they are an uneducated CSR only canceled my "uverse" account and not the home phone.  I moved and never got the mail.  I legitimately called to cancel and zero my balance but they messed up.  I have no proof.

Another example is Comcast throwing a bogus charge on your account that you don't agree with.  Are you really up to the mercy of the CSR to remove the item or else it goes to collections and of course Comcast will acknowledge the debt.  It seems like a way for companies to bypass the court system and not really prove their debts.

Is there a form of dispute that a company will acknowledge but you believe is bogus (work not performed properly, called to cancel, CSR didn't enter the info properly, etc.) but the company will acknowledge (John Doe, XXX-XXX-XXXX, did have an account from date X to date Y and had a balance of Z).

With my case with ATT I never truly "signed" anything.  I did my activation and cancelation over the phone so pherhaps I can demand a signed contract?  My state is Florida by teh way. 

[RobertEG]

The debt validation process only applies to debt collectors, not creditors.

If you contest an asserted debt with a creditor, then there are various provisions.  The FCBA applies to administratively contesting billing issues on revolving accounts, and you can always bring civil action to contest factual issues of debt on any account.

I you contest a debt, I would suggest consultation with an attorney if informal requests for correction fail.

Once a debt is referred to or sold to a debt collector, you can request the debt collector validate the debt under the procedure set forth in FDCPA 809.

Section 809(b) does not explicitly require that the debt collector "prove" the legitimacy of the debt, or provide documentation.  What constitutes adequate debt validation is left to the courts to interpret on a case by case basis.  Interpretation of adequate debt valiation is thus primarily a matter of case law. 

Relevant case law varies by jurisdiction, but generally requires only that the debt collector obtain verification and make a statement of such to the consumer.  To obtain proofs usually requires bringing civil action and using the court's discovery process to compel factual proofs.

Some states have enacted enhanced debt collection practices statutes or regs, such as NY and CA. that do include various degrees of documentation.

Florida is not one of those states.

[Anonymous]

@RobertEG that seems like an absolute bypass of the court process.  For example, Comcast outsourced customer service dosen't code something correct and you are billed more than you are suposed to.  If you refuse to pay it and they will not work with you it goes to collections.  Before credit they would actually have to sue you.

On the far extreme end what stops a company from "accidently" putting someone in debt and then "selling" the rights to a CA which they convinently own.  The CA then acknowledges the "valid" debt.  That seems how some shadier companies could potentially operate and get away with it.  Sounds like innocent until proven guilty to me.

[Geordi]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Another example is Comcast throwing a bogus charge on your account that you don't agree with.  Are you really up to the mercy of the CSR to remove the item or else it goes to collections and of course Comcast will acknowledge the debt.  It seems like a way for companies to bypass the court system and not really prove their debts.

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I trutly understand your frustration.  However, when you signed the agreement with Comcast; with AT&T: did you read all the fine print?

Those documents are produced by attorneys!  Those documents spell out what the remedies for this issue or for that issue.

Bottom line, those "terms" are there because of federal, state, county and municapility laws.  Those terms are also there because of previous court cases: either with that company or because of other companies or industry lawsuits.

Was there EVER a time that a person could not pay a bill, or portion thereof, because they did not agree with it?

Pay both AT&T and Comcast.

After you pay ask them nicely to recall the debt from the Collection Agency.

Don't get mad, just adjust to how corporations operate in 2016 and beyond.  You will find that you will keep your blood pressure low.

Good luck

[Anonymous]

@Geordi

I never "signed" anything electronic or otherwise.  I just called them up over the phone and establised an account.

I definently WANT to just pay ATT and be done with it but they won't let me since it's already charged off.  What is paying the CA going to do?  They refuse to PFD and want to just mark it paid in full which does nothing for the collection item.

[Geordi]

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@Anonymous wrote:

@Geordi

I never "signed" anything electronic or otherwise.  I just called them up over the phone and establised an account.

I definently WANT to just pay ATT and be done with it but they won't let me since it's already charged off.  What is paying the CA going to do?  They refuse to PFD and want to just mark it paid in full which does nothing for the collection item.

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Up to a year ago, I had helped several people resolve issues with AT&T not accepting payments after they were sent to a CA by the following:

First thing is that AT&T never deletes your login info to your account.  

Thus, if you still have the Username and Password for the charged off AT&T account just use your OLD username and password to log into your account.

It will show you the balance owed and allow you to make a payment by either a credit card or using a checking account.

Make the payment!

Wait until the payment is posted to either your checking account or your credit card.

After it is posted, file a complaint with the BBB stating you never heard of the CA and that your payment was accepted by AT&T.  Provide them the BBB with a printout of the successful payment to AT&T.

The CA will respond to the BBB upset typically that AT&T should not have accepted your payment, but every time I have suggested this method, the CA deletes the collection within a week.

Good luck

BTW,

If the CA is AFNI, there has been several threads over the years of people paying AFNI then sending an email to the EO asking for the TL to be deleted.  And have had it deleted within a couple of weeks.

[RobertEG]

Both the FCRA dispute process and the FDCPA debt validation process require that the furnisher or debt collector, respectively, conduct a reasonable investigation and make a finding based on that investigation.   They are administrative processes that provide the consumer the right to request verification/correction.  They are not full legal proceedings that require both parties to provide all relevant documentation and "prove" their determination.

If it is found that a creditor knowingly placed a bogus charge on a consumer account, they are subject to civil liability under FCRA 623(c).

Additionally, in the case of debt validation under the FDCPA, no response/validation is even required to be provided by the debt collector, so lack of what the consumer considers adequate validation is not per se a violation of the debt validation process.  One cannot require submission of proofs when no reponse is even requried.

They are not a bypass of the courts in that the consumer always retains the ability to bring their own civil action challenging the reasonableness of that determination.  It is in that civil proceeding that the consumer can request and obtain full discovery of relevant evidence that supports their case.

[Anonymous]

I just purchased a CR directly from EQ which shows the DOFD of my ATT collection on 2012:

• I'm not 100% sure the account was formally re-aged  I believe I remember an old CR that stated this but it was years ago.  What I do know is that I left the house in late 2010 and moved into a new place.  I have not had an ATT account since.  Is there anything wrong with the OC holding an account open for almost two years before formally closing it and moving it to collections?  This could have been what happened.  I do also remember talking to ATT accounts receivable where they said something about the account still "accruing interest".  They apologized and "stopped" it and told me to pay the CA.  Not sure if this "re-aged" anything.  I do not remember the details of this convo or when it happened.  
   
• Anything wrong with calling ATT accounts receivable and having them send me proof that I stopped service (at least their U-Verse service around 2010?).  I could then use this in a future dispute with the OC, CA, or CRA depending on the advice given here.
   
• I remember my mortgage company making me send this to their person who sent it to EQ.  A signed notee stating:
  
  I INSERT NAME HERE, am no longer disputing this account and agree with the status as reported. Please remove the consumer dispute remark.
  
  The dispute language is still there.
   
• Would it make sense to dispute this with the CA or CRA under the "not my account" presumption or simply state that I never even had an ATT account anywhere near 2012 or request DV?
  
  
• What if ATT says the account is from 2012 but I have no proof of this (hence the main point of this post).  Is ATT allowed to simply hold the account open for almost two years?