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New Member
rhemy1
Posts: 7
Registered: ‎01-16-2009

why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

I just recvd a copy of my credit report and date that the 7 year count down is starting is 2006.  Shouldn't the count down start at the date of the first deliquency which would have been well before 2006-- either 2004 or 2005.  II'm pretty sure that I took the account out of my name in 2005 at the latest.  Should I dispute this?  Should I call the company. 

Mega Contributor
RobertEG
Posts: 17,456
Registered: ‎03-19-2007

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

[ Edited ]

You are correct.  The date of the charge-off has absolutely nothing to do with when reporting of the CO in your CR must fall off.

Yes, it is 7-71/2 years from the DOFD on the OC account.  FCRA 605(c). That is one date-certain.

This is just another repeated example of why you should not rely on your CR alone for projected drop off dates.

The CRA can only rely on the DOFD reported by the OC when projecting your CR falloff date.  OCs dont always provide the correct DOFD to the CRAs.

Your account records are your legal proof of DOFD.  Rely on that date.  Once YOU are certain of that date, then if the CRA continues to include the CO in any credit report they issue after a max of 7 1/2 years from that DOFD, then you have a CRA violation of FCRA 650(a). That is when you can take formal dispute action against the CRA.

 

As an aside, let me give you a few examples of how an incorrect DOFD gets into your credit file, and thus what to be on the lookout for.

Legally, your DOFD is the date your first went one day late on a required payment, and the account was not therafter placed back into paid, good standing before they choose to do a charge off.  The OC may have reported a 30-day late to your credit report, but failed to also update your "FCRA Compliance Date/Date of first delinquency" to your credit file.  This is a separate code reporting that they should do, but often dont.  IT can very easily not even be the date of the first reporting of a monthly delinqauency by the OC.  Or the OC may not even have posted the intiial 30-day late to your CR, or maybe not even have posted a 60-day late.  That is their choosing, but also does not affect your DOFD, and with each monthly reporting, they should have reported the actual DOFD.  But again,the CRAs dont enforce monthly updatiing of your DOFD in your credit file.

So, even before the CO was done, you quite possibly could have NO reporting of the DOFD to the CRA, or maybe the last one they reported was incorretly reported as the date of subsequent delinquencies, and not the true DOFD.  One reason for this very lax OC reporting is that a DOFD really means nothing until the account is either charged-off, or reported for collections.  So in monthly reporting by an OC, it is simply not a priority for them.

 

The FCRA recognizes this.  Once a charge-off or collection is a reported, then it is IMPERITIVE for the CRA to have a correct reported DOFD in your file in order for them to be able to calcualte the 7 1/2 fall of date under FCRA 605(c).  That is the first time that the statute enters into the picture of DOFD reporting.

That is the purpose of FCRA 623(a)(5)(A), which simply states that the OC, once charging off the account or placing it into collection, MUST. within 90-days, report that DOFD to the CRA, and that it must match any DOFD that they previously reported. FCRA 623(a)(5)(B). They couild just once again confirm the prior, and improper, DOFD that they reported.

And your normal, consumer credit reports rarely, if ever, report FCRA 623(a)(5)(A) date reported by the OC.  It should, in my opinion,  be a requriement that any credit report issued by a CRA in which a CO or CA has been reported must include a separate inclusion of the FCRA 623(a)(5)(A) date reported by the OC.  CRs dont provide that.  Thereing lies the problems in having to rely on an unreliable DOFD.
But it is ultimately your legal proof of DOFD from your account records. that controls

 

Here is what I suggest.  Know your legal DOFD from your own records.  Wait until a CRA issues any credit report after 7 1/2 years from the DOFD that still includes reporting of the CO.  Then hit the CRA with an immediate dispute letter under FCRA 605(a).  REquest the FCRA 623(a)(5)(A) date as legal comparison of what the OC reportethem with what you prove in your documentation of the real DOFD.

 

 

 

 

 

Mega Contributor
RobertEG
Posts: 17,456
Registered: ‎03-19-2007

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

[ Edited ]

As a further suggestion, providing you are willing to spend $10.50 to see your reported DOFD that is currently in your credit file before just waiting to see if the CO drops after 7 1/2 years, consider the following letter to the CRAs:

 

"This is a request under FCRA 609(a)(1) for "all information in the consumer's (my) credit file at the time of this request" that relates to the following information reported to my credit file under the provisions of FCRA 623(a)(5)(A)..

 

"Original credtior,

                      (identify the OC and account)

  reported a charge-off to my credt file on (date)

 

"Under the provisions of FCRA 623(a)(5)(A), the above-named credtior was requried to have reported the date of first account delinquency to you within 90-days of their posted charge-off.  What I specifically request is the date when they did this reporting  to you, and the date of first delinquency that they reported in compliance with FCRA 623(a)(5)(A).  If they failed to comply with the required reporting provisions of FCRA 623(a)(5)(A). then please notify me as such.

 

"I understand that this request requires the payment of the fee set forth in FCRA 612(f), which is currently $10.50.  Enclosed is my check in that amount to cover the fee for this request."

Senior Contributor
O6
Posts: 3,626
Registered: ‎10-13-2009

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency


RobertEG wrote:

You are correct.  The date of the charge-off has absolutely nothing to do with when reporting of the CO in your CR must fall off.

Yes, it is 7-71/2 years from the DOFD on the OC account.  FCRA 605(c). That is one date-certain.

This is just another repeated example of why you should not rely on your CR alone for projected drop off dates.

The CRA can only rely on the DOFD reported by the OC when projecting your CR falloff date.  OCs dont always provide the correct DOFD to the CRAs.

Your account records are your legal proof of DOFD.  Rely on that date.  Once YOU are certain of that date, then if the CRA continues to include the CO in any credit report they issue after a max of 7 1/2 years from that DOFD, then you have a CRA violation of FCRA 650(a). That is when you can take formal dispute action against the CRA.

 

... 

 


This is false.

 

Let's look at the actual provisions of the Fair Credit Reporting Act.

 

§ 605(a)(4) Accounts placed for collection or charged to profit and loss which antedate the
report by more than seven years.

 

§ 605(c)(1) In general. The 7-year period referred to in paragraphs (4) and (6) 3 of subsection
(a) shall begin, with respect to any delinquent account that is placed for collection
(internally or by referral to a third party, whichever is earlier), charged to profit and
loss, or subjected to any similar action, upon the expiration of the 180-day period
beginning on the date of the commencement of the delinquency which immediately
preceded the collection activity, charge to profit and loss, or similar action.

 

Not only the FCRA itself, but also FTC advisories and judicial precedence has established that the 7-year period is to commence upon the account being placed for collection or being charged to P&L (i.e. chargeoff).  The 180 day (6 month) period comes into place because businesses have up to 180 days to carry the delinquent account on their books after which it must be removed from their books. 

 

If the DOFD was, for example, July 1, 2000, the CRTP would expire 7 years and 180 days from that date at the latest.  However, if the creditor sent the account to collections on, say, August 1, 2000, the CRTP would require it stop reporting in August 2007.  Should the creditor chargeoff or send the account to collections in, say, July 2001, the item would still need to fall off 7 years and 180 days from July 1, 2000. 

 

You need to contact your creditor to get details on when the account went into default. 

 

 

IAALBNYL
Mega Contributor
RobertEG
Posts: 17,456
Registered: ‎03-19-2007

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

[ Edited ]

I stand by my last post and assert that it is NOT false!

O6, I have a great deal of respect for your knowlege and opinions, but on this point, I think you are wrong.

The amendment of the FCRA back in 1996 by implementing FCRA 605(c) was intended to eliminate such arguments that anything a debt collector reports can reset the DOFD. and thus reset the statutory drop off dates of charge offs and collections under FCRA 605(4).  Congress spent months debating this, and finally, and clearly said, no, it is not what a debt colletor reports., but only what the OC reports as the is only controlling date under FCRA 605(c).

Just reading the words of the statute, you may  arrive at spurious conclusions. But of you read the legislative history of FCRA 605c). it is not even a shade of grey.  Congress devoted hours of time to dismissing the argument that anything a CA reports can reset the CR dropoff set forth in FCRA 605(a)(4)   So they further defined FCRA 605(a)(4) by the clarification offered in FCRA 605(c).  As stated in the statute, that is the "date of the delinquency that preceded the colelction activity."  I know of no FTC decison that contravenes that interpretation of statute, and says that reporting by a CA after their initiatiaion of theier collection activity could precede their collection activity/.

How can a date reported as a later result of a collection actvity ever precede initiation of collection activity?  It cant.

That was the expressed intrent when enacting FCRA 605(c).  To eliminste debt collectpt reporting from reset of the one single. date-certain reliance of both CO and CA are, and to sssure CR drop off date as only being dependent on the DOFD with the OC/

Date of drop of a CO or CA is. under FCRA 605(c). and the hundreds of hours of Congressional intent. one date certain

That is the DOFD on the OC account.  No CA reporting has ANY relevancy to that date-certain. fixed by congress when they enacted FCRA 605(c)

Senior Contributor
O6
Posts: 3,626
Registered: ‎10-13-2009

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

[ Edited ]

RobertEG wrote:

That is NOT false!

O6, I have a great deal of respect for your knowlege and opinions, but on this point, I think you are wrong.

The amendment of the FCRA back in 1996 by implementing FCRA 605(c) was intended to eliminate such arguments that anything a debt collector reports can reset the DOFD. and thus reset the statutory drop off dates of charge offs and collections under FCRA 605(4).  Congress spent months debating this, and finally, and clearly said, no, it is not what a debt colletor reports., but only what the OC reports as the is only controlling date under FCRA 605(c).

Just reading the words of the statute, you may  arrive at spurious conclusions. But of you read the legislative history of FCRA 605c). it is not even a shade of grey.  Congress devoted hours of time to dismissing the argument that anything a CA reports can reset the CR dropoff set forth in FCRA 605(a)(4)   So they further defined FCRA 605(a)(4) by the clarification offered in FCRA 605(c).  As stated in the statute, that is the "date of the delinquency that preceded the colelction activity."  I know of no FTC decison that contravenes that interpretation of statute, and says that reporting by a CA after their initiatiaion of theier collection activity could precede their collection activity/.

How can a date reported as a later result of a collection actvity ever precede initiation of collection activity?  It cant.

That was the expressed intrent when enacting FCRA 605(c).  To eliminste debt collectpt reporting from reset of the one single. date-certain reliance of both CO and CA are, and to sssure CR drop off date as only being dependent on the DOFD with the OC/

Date of drop of a CO or CA is. under FCRA 605(c). and the hundreds of hours of Congressional intent. one date certain

That is the DOFD on the OC account.  No CA reporting has ANY relevancy to that date-certain. fixed by congress when they enacted FCRA 605(c)


I can't seem to recall saying that the CA has any input on when the derogatory falls off.  The dates in question are determined by the original creditor according to the facts of the case.

 

The FCRA is crystal clear that the derogatory falls seven years from the date of chargeoff or placement for collections, period.  The FCRA - not to mentionand generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) and the IRS - is also clear that the original creditor has up to 180 days from date of default or first delinquency to remove the bad debt from their books. 

 

As such, the statement that "The date of the charge-off has absolutely nothing to do with when reporting of the CO in your CR must fall off" is false. 

 

To arrive at the precise date, instead of your generalization of 7 to 7.5 years, by which the derogatory must fall off , the date of chargeoff or placement of the account with either an internal or external CA is crucial.  Precisely 7 years from date of chargeoff or placement for collections, the derogatory must fall off.  The original creditor has precisely 180 days or less to remove the debt from their books.  There can be no debate.  No matter what is claimed, the Earth is not flat.

 

The FCRA never states that anything will fall off in "7 to 7.5 years."  It specifically and unequivocally states it will fall off in 7 years from one -- and only one -- precise date:  the date of chargeoff or placement for collections which cannot, under any circumstances occur later than 180 days after the "delinquency which immediately
preceded the collection activity, charge to profit and loss, or similar action." 

 

To make things even more interesting, there are consumer debts that can remain appearing on your credit report longer than 7.5 years.  Many loans have an acceleration clause which renders for credit reporting period calculations the DOFD practically useless.  Regardless of when or when not the debtor misses their payments, when there is an acceleration clause it is the creditor -- and only the creditor -- who determines precisely when you are in default and that can be, on average, 90 days after you've missed your payment.  From the date the acceleration clause is invoked, the creditor has 180 days within which the debt needs to be written off and precisely 7 years from the date of write-off, the debt should no longer appear on one's credit report.  For this and other somewhat uncommon situations the FCRA does not say 7.5 years is the aboslute maximum for the CRTP.

 

IAALBNYL
Moderator Emeritus
MarineVietVet
Posts: 14,084
Registered: ‎07-14-2009

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

As I wrote in another post:

 

You’ll get varied opinions about this subject. I’ve found at least three different views:

1. It is 7.5 years for both charge offs and collections.
2. It is 7 years for a collection and 7.5 years for a CO.
3. All accounts in CO or collection will come off after 7 years.

I know I’m not the smartest person on the planet and I’ve struggled with exactly how to interpret this. I lean towards opinion #1 because I think it clearly says that both CO’s and collections are gone after 7.5 years. But I’m not 100% convinced of my position and am willing to admit I could be wrong.

Others are certain that #2 or #3 are the only answer possible and I can’t and won’t say they are incorrect.

Each person will have to decide on their own what it says. However I think that we might agree that such derogatories will most likely remain for at least 7 years. If a person is fortunate it might go away even sooner. The debate goes on.

 

If these laws were written in English and not Congress(Lawyer)Speak I believe there wouldn’t be as much confusion.  :smileyhappy:

 

 

 

From a BK years ago to:
EX - 9/09 pulled by lender 802
EQ - 7/06-663, 3/10-800
TU - 8/10-772
You can do the same thing with hard work


Senior Contributor
O6
Posts: 3,626
Registered: ‎10-13-2009

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency


marinevietvet wrote:

As I wrote in another post:

 

You’ll get varied opinions about this subject. I’ve found at least three different views:

1. It is 7.5 years for both charge offs and collections.
2. It is 7 years for a collection and 7.5 years for a CO.
3. All accounts in CO or collection will come off after 7 years.

I know I’m not the smartest person on the planet and I’ve struggled with exactly how to interpret this. I lean towards opinion #1 because I think it clearly says that both CO’s and collections are gone after 7.5 years. But I’m not 100% convinced of my position and am willing to admit I could be wrong.

Others are certain that #2 or #3 are the only answer possible and I can’t and won’t say they are incorrect.

Each person will have to decide on their own what it says. However I think that we might agree that such derogatories will most likely remain for at least 7 years. If a person is fortunate it might go away even sooner. The debate goes on.

 

If these laws were written in English and not Congress(Lawyer)Speak I believe there wouldn’t be as much confusion.  :smileyhappy:

 

 

 

From a BK years ago to:
EX - 9/09 pulled by lender 802
EQ - 7/06-663, 3/10-800
TU - 8/10-772
You can do the same thing with hard work



Don't see how you get #1.

 

§ 605(a)(4) Accounts placed for collection or charged to profit and loss which antedate the
report by more than seven years.

 

I don't think it can get any clearer.

IAALBNYL
Moderator Emeritus
MarineVietVet
Posts: 14,084
Registered: ‎07-14-2009

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

 


O6 wrote:

Don't see how you get #1.

 

§ 605(a)(4) Accounts placed for collection or charged to profit and loss which antedate the
report by more than seven years.

 

I don't think it can get any clearer.


 

In your opinion it can't get any clearer. I said I lean towards it's #1 because of FCRA 605(c)(1):

 

In general. The 7-year period referred to in paragraphs (4) and (6) 3 of subsection (a) shall begin, with respect to any delinquent account that is placed for collection (internally or by referral to a third party, whichever is earlier), charged to profit and loss, or subjected to any similar action, upon the expiration of the 180-day period beginning on the date of the commencement of the delinquency which immediately preceded the collection activity, charge to profit and loss, or similar action.

 

We just interpret it differently. Your opinion doesn't make me wrong or vice versa. If legalese wasn't used writing this stuff we would probably all agree what it says.

 

There are those here who know much more than me who say It is 7 years for a collection and 7.5 years for a CO. They are just as confident in their position as you are in yours.  :smileyhappy: 

 

 

 

From a BK years ago to:
EX - 9/09 pulled by lender 802
EQ - 7/06-663, 3/10-800
TU - 8/10-772
You can do the same thing with hard work


Established Contributor
okstatefan5945
Posts: 517
Registered: ‎04-13-2009

Re: why does my 7 year count start at the charge off date instead of the date of first delinquency

Not going to argue with anyone here but I am going to provide some current information to clear things up. Unfortunately I have a CO and so does my wife. NEITHER one went to collections. They both went 30-60-90-CO.

 

The date they are set to fall off on my reports obtained from the bureaus not any third parties are all exactly 7 years 6 months from the 30 day late that led to CO. Both accounts had 30 day lates previous and went current again.

 

Therefore based on the FCRA and the information in my credit reports they fall off 7.5 years from DOFD that led to chargeoff so based on the wording of the FCRA and the content in my credit report I have to agree with the knowledgeable Robert on this one. I dont know about the rest of you but I unfortunately have the proof in my reports. If they fell off 7 years from CO date I would get rid of them 3 months sooner but unfortunately again that isnt how it works. Hope this helps clear things up.

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