Can we REALLY help family members change their ways?

[gamegrrl]

My brother has some serious money issues, and I am worried that his current situation could damage our relationship.

I won't delve too deeply into how he got into his situation, but here is a summary:

• Until a few months ago, he hadn't worked outside the home for decades. He was a stay-at-home dad
• He has been on disability for several years. He tells me it is due to his back and 'other issues', but I think it's primarily the 'other issues' - Social anxiety, etc.
• He gets food stamps, or whatever the current equivalent of that is these days
• He filed for bankruptcy a year ago
• He is working a part-time job and knows he needs to work more, but is very, very picky about what jobs he would consider
• He buys things like fancy water filters, almond milk, dietary supplements (stuff that he takes with an eyedropper and some green stuff he stirs up and drinks)
• He has no savings
• His vehicle is on its last legs -- It dying would be a HUGE issue
• He has loaded up on credit card debt since his bankruptcy and is making minimum payments
• He lived with me for a few months at the end of last year. It was rough for all of us, as all I had to offer him was the sofa in my living room. Consequently, he moved out before he should have (financially)
• He and I, as well as our brother, all received a windfall a few years ago: About $30k each. Both brothers blew through the money and ended up worse off after it was gone. Money tends to run through his fingers like water.

He has watched me improve my lot in life through hard work, improved money management and mindful planning. Back when he was filing for bankruptcy, he promised to tell me if at some point he was considering taking out a loan for anything, primarily so that we could talk it out and determine if it was a good/bad idea, etc..

So today he tells me that "his only option" is to take out a loan because he can't meet his monthly financial obligations. He acknowledged that it is a Band-Aid, but he doesn't see any other alternatives.

This is such a bad, bad idea. At least I think it is, based on what I know. Maybe he plans to pay off those credit cards (they are bound to be small balances, I think) which, to his way of thinking, would eliminate those two monthly minimum payments. The biggest thing I worry about is that he will blow the money.

I responded to him (via email, which is how he initially contacted me to tell me about the loan), telling him that I think it's a bad idea, and I suggested instead that he eliminate every bit of fat on his budget (gourmet foods, those stupid supplements, water filters, etc -- I didn't SAY 'stupid'), and be a little less picky about jobs.

He borrows from me all the time. We agreed long ago that 1) the upper limit of what he could owe me at any given time is $500 and 2) when he borrows, he has to tell me when he will be able to pay me back and 3) he ALWAYS has to pay me back when he says he will. To date, he has ALWAYS paid me back, and he currently owes me $0.

This is probably just me being paranoid, but I am SO AFRAID that he is going to ask me to modify our $500 upper limit and come up with a repayment plan, including interest. I do NOT want to do this. I am totally against him taking out a loan from anywhere, and because of that I am doubly against my loaning him a large amount with a repayment plan.

He gets very defensive when I talk about his spending. He rationalizes everything he buys, and very skillfully, too.

I'm just not sure how to handle this. If he's talking about trying to find someplace to loan him money, I guess I can just say, "Well, I think it's a bad idea." and leave it at that. If he asks to borrow the money from me... I just don't know how to say NO. He knows that I am doing well, and that I have a lot of money in savings. He probably figures that anything I would loan him would be a drop in the bucket and have no impact on me. 

I sure don't want to come across as selfish, but I work hard for what I have. I thought he had hit rock bottom when he had to come and live on my sofa, and I really thought that the memory of those months would be the fuel to keep him from making all those bad decisions over again. I am dubious.

[Gunnar419]

You are not selfish. Being afraid of being sucked into someone else's financial black hole is not selfishness.

Kudos to you for the very careful, very structured, way you have handled loans to him in the past. That part is great!

Your brother obviously has multiple problems that you can't help him with, but it sounds as if his biggest problem is being in denial about the nature of his problems, and in particular about how he's handling his financial life. As long as he's in denial, there's not one thing you can do to change his long term outlook.

Until he is willing to cut fat from his spending and earn more income, I think you have no obligation to him. Certainly you have no obligation to save him from himself (which would in fact more likely be enabling him).

It's going to be emotionally hard for you, but just stick to your guns. Tell him the same $500 loan offer still holds, but the only other help you can give him is when he's ready to trim expenses and earn more money.

It's good that you're "talking" by email. It'll make it easier to say that.

[Anonymous]

I totally understand where you are coming from and its tough.  Here comes the BUT.........He has to stand on his own two feet financially.  If that means that he gets a loan, he has to figure it out.  You also have to start saying no.  It isn't a matter of whether you can afford it.  It is a matter of he knows he can get help from you so there is no consequences to his actions.  Tough love is just that,  it is tough.  Ok so it is easy to give advice but you don't have to take it lol  Here was my situation:

I worked extremely hard.  I became an officer of the company as a result of the hard work and long hours.  With that came the nice pay salary.  My sister had every excuse in the world for why she didn't work.  She has two daughters that are like my own kids.  I gave her what I called guilty money.  She always used the girls as her reason for asking me for help.  She knew I wouldn't turn her down for them.  The girls are now grown.  My sister seemed to think she was entitled to my help.   I quit helping.  We had a blow out.  We haven't talked in several years.  She alienate our mother from me.  All out of greed.

Only you can decide how much you are willing to do..............Family and money are like religion and politics!!

[gamegrrl]

mimsof4: I am sure that a big part of why I am treading so carefully with this is that I don't want what happened between you and your sister to happen with me and my brother. I have another brother who doesn't talk to either of us because his wife has driven a wedge between him and the rest of the family. He is an alcoholic with a metric buttload of troubles, including money troubles. This brother is also on disability, but for the sake of full disclosure, he was in a motorcycle accident and broke his back. He is a hard worker and isn't lazy in the least.

My mom has MS. She has had it for over 50 years, ever since I was 7 years old. She also coddled BOTH of my brothers when they were young. She did EVERYTHING for them, even their homework and folding the papers for their paper route. I, on the other hand, had to step in to be "mom" when she had MS flare-ups. I worked from the time I was 14 years old, had to earn/save money to buy my first car and cover the insurance. I was often working 2 or 3 part time jobs the whole time I was in HS. I had to be, in essense, a tiny little adult.

My other brother (not the one I originally posted about) got a Mustang Cobra for his 16th birthday. Yeah. I know.

But at the end of the day, neither of them can seem to keep what little money they have from slipping through their fingers.

Your post really got me thinking: I have a teeny, tiny family. My two brothers (who don't talk to one another) and my mom. That's it. That's all I've got. I worry about my mom all the time, and I have for all my life. I work very hard at being the responsible one... the one that doesn't cause her any worry... the one she can count on. I do what I can to minimize any problems my brothers are having so that worry about them doesn't impact my mom's health. I'm sure that's why I feel like I need to do everything I can for the brother who is talking about getting a loan: He's nearly all the family I have left, plus I don't want his struggle to cause worry and sadness for my mom.

Getting all of this out into the light of day makes it look pretty weird. And it also makes me wonder if when my mom passes away if I am going to turn into a raging, selfish bad girl to make up for all these years of lost time ;-)

[Anonymous]

First off, I didn't intend anything in my post to make it sound like your brother was lazy!  I was just stating my sister is lol  I just wanted to clarify that.

I also have a small family.  It is basically my brother and I left - with our kids and nieces  My dad passed away when I was 23.  I was close to my mom but she had health issues that left my sister with power of attorney.  I live 3 hours away so there wasn't much I could do on a regular basis.   Because my sister is acting so spiteful, she created a huge wedge. My mom is in ICU and has been for a few weeks.  My nieces and my daughter tried to go see her.  My sister (with PoA) has blocked all future visits.  I will definitely turn into a bad girl if something happens to my mom.  The family is prepared to bail me out of jail! j/k, well maybe not lol  I suffer from middle child syndrome   That will be my excuse lol

It is a tough situatioin for you.  It will all work out.  Best case scenario, have a heart to heart with him and tell him your concerns.  Worst case scenario, stick to your guns and keep that $500 rule in place.  It will save your relationship in the long haul!  He is very lucky to have you!!!  Any time you want to vent, I am here.  Drop me a note!

[Anonymous]

You are not being selfish. There is only so much you can do for someone who doesn't want to help themself. I would stick to your guns at $500, and I even think that is being generous. You are NOT a bad person!!!! You are being more than generous.

[Existentialist]

Generally speaking, saying no is often more difficult when loved ones are involved - which is why I have a steadfast rule when it comes to loaning money to ANY & EVERYone... I DONT... period. If u need $500 but all I hav to giv is $100 then thats what u get - no strings and no need to pay it back. However once u receive it then u can no longer come back asking for more. I've already 'given' what I could. There is never a need for either party to get upset over 'what is/was owed' or 'when it needs to be paid back'. They can accept what I hav to give or leave empty handed - the choice is theirs. Everyone in this life has to learn to fend for themselves even @ the expense of failing and having to deal with the consequences - even more so when dealing with loved ones otherwise we simply end up becoming enablers. Life is difficult no doubt but... U cant save ppl. They must learn to save themselves. Yes its difficult bcuz U hav compassion (which is a good/great thing) but sharing in someone elses burden no matter who it is will inevitably drag U down as well. At some point restitution wont be made and if/when that happens what will u do? Self preservation is the first law of nature and U must ALWAYS take care of yourself first even @ the exclusion of others. Its not selfish... its reality. Its life. Do what u can and then simply be content with the knowledge that you've done what U could. The resolve is yours to address. Are u prepared to meet it head on? Best of luck.