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Registered: ‎12-30-2011

All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

[ Edited ]

Starting a new thread as it turned out to be unanticipatedly more interesting than I expected rather than a confirmation of what I already allegedly knew and I caught an Amex charge card datapoint too.  I also had pulled an EX 1B report after my late went away to see if I got anything (didn't) so I had a decent comparison set which I decided to simply follow.  Posting this part of it now before I catch a flight tomorrow.  

 

Also a much larger drop than my last test (-11 or -12 on all 3, this one EX FICO 8 dropped 23, and EQ FICO 8 dropped 18), may have shifted scorecards in that period of time with some of the changes I had (dropped a 30D from April so presumably the pattern lates are now no longer a possible factor in FICO 8 for example, pure conjecture btw, no real way to tease that out at this point in time).

 

Goals: 

1) Test HELOC on all models

2) Test PLOC on all models

3) Test Amex charge card on all models

 

Base Info:

Charge card has a high balance of $11K when we're talking CL on some models

HELOC has a limit of 27K.

PLOC has a limit of 20K

Aggregate revolving discounting the above: 163K 

 

Test Plan:

1) Pay off all non-HELOC/Amex revolvers to zero, HELOC / Amex reporting for datapoint. Done 4/7

2) Pay off Amex, statement date 4/11, only HELOC reporting balance reporting for datapoint (also DCU Beacon 5.0) . Done 4/15

3) Transfer $20 out of the PLOC, reports end of month, HELOC + PLOC reporting for datapoint. Done 5/6

 

Analysis: 

 

AlgorithmAmexHELOCPLOC
FICO 9NoNoYes *
FICO 8NoNoYes
EQ/TU FICO 04Not testedNoYes
EX FICO 04Not testedYesYes
FICO 98Not testedYesYes

 

FICO 8 all models: Appears to discount both the HELOC and Amex charge card from the number of revolvers with balances calculation; the PLOC is counts as a revolver.

 

FICO 9 all models: Almost identical to FICO 8 in behavior; there is a glaring exception as shown in the TU FICO 9 data where my PLOC counts as a revolver and it does not count as a credit card... and there are reason codes not only for no revolvers, but also no credit cards, which is a serious departure from all of the older models; fortunately this doesn't affect most people, let a credit card report and go on with life.

 

FICO 04: Varies by bureau, unfortunately.

 

EQ Beacon 5.0 / Transunion Classic 04: The HELOC does not count for revolving (see 4/28 posts for reference).

 

EX Risk Model v3: does appear to count.  Fortunately this score is effectively irrelevant in the credit market as EX Risk Model v2 is not only the mortgage score but also the Experian score most lenders I'm aware of stuck with... not certain I've seen any lender UW on this score, plenty still do on the v2 model.

  

FICO 98: HELOC does appear to count on EX v2; no access to other scores.  Historically TU 98 counted Amex, I may repeat this test when I'm clean (with less datapoints) and check the Amex alone which wasn't ever done for this algorithm.

 

Note on the data: on 5/1/17 my 30/60D was deleted on Experian leaving me with just a tax lien as derogatory; I appear to have been rebucketed so the initial part of the dataset does not match the second part for magnitude of score difference.

 

Green = score went up, Red = score went down, standard black = no change

 

Balance Details:

Revolver3/28/174/7/174/15/175/1/175/6/17
HELOC$8,258.00$5,790.00$5,790.00$5,790.00$1,802.00
Amex Zync$10.00$10.00 $0.00 $0.00$0.00
PLOC$0.00$0.00 $0.00 $0.00$20.00
CSR$294.00$0.00 $0.00 $0.00$0.00
DCU$55.00$0.00 $0.00 $0.00$0.00
ELAN$7.00$0.00 $0.00 $0.00$0.00
Rest$0.00$0.00 $0.00 $0.00$0.00

 

Score3/28/174/7/174/15/175/1/175/6/17
EX FICO 8732709709704734
EX FICO 2719723723703703
EX FICO 3678679679684688
EX FICO 9768733733717771
      
EX FICO 8 AU729714714709745
EX FICO 2 AU701694694679679
EX FICO 9 AU771740740726773
      
EX FICO 8 BC745729729723755
EX FICO 2 BC701717717705705
EX FICO 9 BC759730730723770

 

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

4/15 Update: Amex -> $0, and literally nothing moved.

 

FICO 9: Discounts both HELOC and Amex charge card (Term = 1 month)

FICO 8: Discounts both HELOC and Amex charge card (Term = 1 month)

FICO 04: EX appears to count the HELOC absolutely, waiting on DCU for EQ Beacon 5.0 at end of month

FICO 98: counts the HELOC as we pretty much all knew.

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

[ Edited ]

Update from 4/14 from CK's Vantage score.

 

Balances: Mortgage, HELOC, $22/500 Alliant loan, and still $10 on the Amex at this point.

 

Changes from last (according to CK, I will verify this eventually): DCU / Elan / Chase -> $0

 

EQ VS 3 +7 to 802 of all things, which is a new record for me.

TU VS 3 +7 to 707 (my file scores really awkwardly on this bureau)

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

4/28 Update: DCU provided EQ FICO 5: 693 -> 686  (-7)

 

Balances: Mortgage, HELOC, $22/500 Alliant loan

 

Wasn't expecting this after the EX FICO 3 data but it doesn't appear that the HELOC is counting under EQ Beacon 5.0.

 

Going to also try zeroing out the HELOC but unfortunately I can't get DCU to report that for another 32ish days, and I have inquiries passing the 1 year mark in May from my aborted refinance and HELOC and that may skew results somewhat though until my 60D or tax lien falls off it shouldn't be substantial.

 

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

[ Edited ]

Well I will be darned.  Bought the 1B report for TU just to see, it's not factored into TU 04 either.

 

4. There are no recent balances on your revolving credit accounts.

 

That's on every model provided except for FICO 8 AU where it's complaining about no recent auto loan activity Cat Tongue

 

Actually, and this one's interesting to me, base FICO 9 reason codes:

 

  • 1. You have a public record and/or collection on your credit report.
    [?]
  • 2. You have a short credit history.
    [?]
  • 3. There are no recent balances on your revolving credit accounts.
    [?]
  • 4. There are no recent balances on your credit cards

 

The heck?  Evidence now of revolving accounts not all being created equally?????  Guess I should've pulled TU as well back when the Amex was reporting but since I don't really care about the bureau, le sigh.  Also interesting it isn't complaining about recently missed payments which TU 8 and TU 4 all industry options are.  FICO 9 BC mentions the late, FICO 9 AU doesn't like the baseline classic score.

 

Scores for future analysis post PLOC report.  Balances = Mortgage, HELOC

 

 4/28/17
TU FICO 8724
TU FICO 4724
TU FICO 9740
  
TU FICO 8 AU737
TU FICO 4 AU734
TU FICO 9 AU743
  
TU FICO 8 BC741
TU FICO 4 BC708
TU FICO 9 BC732

 

 

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

[ Edited ]

Well I will be darned, my PLOC counts as revolving but does not count as a credit card under FICO 9.  HELOC and PLOC ($20) reporting a balance.

 

I really, REALLY wish I got full reason codes for FICO 8 though Bankcard isn't complaining about it, as I seem to have lost 12 initially for all 0's, but only gained back 7, and that isn't my experience at all previously when doing this.  The 30/60D late is still on the BOFA tradeline so this isn't some random wierdsauce rebucketing in dirty scorecards, but anyway.

 

FICO 9 though I still have this on all industry options:  3. There are no recent balances on your credit cards.

 

Also would note TU FICO 8 AU distinguishes auto loans seperate from either my mortgage or my Alliant secured loan, maybe some things aren't created equally even under FICO 8, but clearly not on FICO 9... and I'm almost at the magic 740 on a mortgage score (TU 04)... huh.  Who would've thought the bureau I don't care about would be the most interesting from a FICO perspective.

 

Score4/28/175/2/17Delta
TU FICO 87247317
TU FICO 472473915
TU FICO 974076424
    
TU FICO 8 AU7377447
TU FICO 4 AU73474814
TU FICO 9 AU74376421
    
TU FICO 8 BC7417476
TU FICO 4 BC70873022
TU FICO 9 BC73275321

 

 

 
Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

Fantastic data points!  Glad you're expanding the data over time.

 

For someone with derogatories on your reports, you have fantastic scores.  I can't imagine where you'll be when that tax lien falls off.

 

As for the BOA 30D and 60D, have you attempted GW with them?  Is that account still open and active?

FICO8 3/17 550EX, 570TU, 559EQ
FICO8 10/17 710EX, 693TU, 717EQ -- almost 700 club!
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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC


ABCD2199 wrote:

Fantastic data points!  Glad you're expanding the data over time.

 

For someone with derogatories on your reports, you have fantastic scores.  I can't imagine where you'll be when that tax lien falls off.

 

As for the BOA 30D and 60D, have you attempted GW with them?  Is that account still open and active?


The account was CBCG nearly immediately after I paid the outstanding balance on the 60D heh.  

 

Actually I did not try GW: I read a bunch of comments on Rebuilding when I first joined and it was "snowballs chance in hell with BOFA" and since I had the Cali tax lien which likewise wasn't going anywhere for 6 years at that point, I didn't bother. 1 negative vs 2 negatives ain't a thing really... funny enough apparently the 60D was somehow helping my scores most likely by putting me into a sloppier bucket.  I can't explain the shift on EX without a scorecard reassignment, it's interesting to me since we know so very little about scorecard assignment in the dirty buckets.

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: All revolvers zero testing: HELOC, Amex charge, PLOC

[ Edited ]

Finished with EX testing unless I decide to see whether the lack of a credit card reporting is hurting me there just not making the score reason codes (vs TU where it's stated in the reason codes for FICO 9), PLOC reported: PLOC and HELOC reporting a balance.  I also have an inquiry coming off EX later this month which may skew the testing.

 

My 30/60D got airstruck during this evidenced by the 5/1 pull (note drop from 4/15), and it appears as though on some models I was rebucketed.  The rebucket theory is also supported in that  I did not get identical score changes for going to zero vs. 1 revolver, and I've always always had identical changes on number of revolvers with balances previously on all breakpoints including all zeros.

 

Data dump, note how large the all zero's penalty is on FICO 9 even with a tax lien on my report: wow.  I have given up hope of understanding EX FICO 3 at this point, and sadly I have to hope that my tax lien being deleted in either July (NCAP) or in September worst case (EX exclusion time) will save that score, and to think that used to be my best mortgage score and now it's nearly 40 points under TU Classic 04.

 

Will update the top post in a bit, need to get to the bank heh.

 

3/28: HELOC, Amex, credit cards with balances

4/7: HELOC, Amex with balances

4/15: HELOC with balance

5/1: HELOC with balance, but no more 30/60D from 2010, tax lien is the only remaining negative outside of more than optimal inquiries and ugly installment utilization as far as file optimization goes.

5/6: HELOC, PLOC with balance

 

Score3/28/174/7/174/15/175/1/175/6/17
EX FICO 8732709709704734
EX FICO 2719723723703703
EX FICO 3678679679684688
EX FICO 9768733733717771
      
EX FICO 8 AU729714714709745
EX FICO 2 AU701694694679679
EX FICO 9 AU771740740726773
      
EX FICO 8 BC745729729723755
EX FICO 2 BC701717717705705
EX FICO 9 BC759730730723770

 

 

 

 

 

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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