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Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

Senior Contributor

Re: HP is not the only thing

Why was it a 2010 concern and not one now?  What's changed?  I'm honestly curious about this.  Do creditors these days not care as much as they did 6 years ago if you have a weak profile and apply for a bunch of new credit lines at once?  Does AA simply happen less in general?  I had a creditor take AA against me and close a credit card of mine last year out of the blue because they were worried my profile was too weak.  It wasn't the result of a spree, but my scores were in the low-mid 600's at the time which didn't sit well with them.

 

A spree depending on the profile could drop someones scores 20-30 points or more between the inquries, new accounts and AAoA reduction.  My profile was pretty strong and I lost about 20 points which granted came back in 3-4 months.  My point though is if you have someone with say a 640 credit score that goes on a spree, gets the new accounts and his scores drop to 610 as a result of the spree a current creditor could feel that moves him out of the "ok" range to being a little too risky for their liking and take AA.

 

I just don't think it's a very smart move to go on a spree if one's scores aren't at least fair-good to begin with.  Just my opinion.

Message 51 of 90
Moderator

Re: HP is not the only thing


BrutalBodyShots wrote:

Why was it a 2010 concern and not one now?  What's changed?  I'm honestly curious about this.  Do creditors these days not care as much as they did 6 years ago if you have a weak profile and apply for a bunch of new credit lines at once?  Does AA simply happen less in general?  I had a creditor take AA against me and close a credit card of mine last year out of the blue because they were worried my profile was too weak.  It wasn't the result of a spree, but my scores were in the low-mid 600's at the time which didn't sit well with them.

 

A spree depending on the profile could drop someones scores 20-30 points or more between the inquries, new accounts and AAoA reduction.  My profile was pretty strong and I lost about 20 points which granted came back in 3-4 months.  My point though is if you have someone with say a 640 credit score that goes on a spree, gets the new accounts and his scores drop to 610 as a result of the spree a current creditor could feel that moves him out of the "ok" range to being a little too risky for their liking and take AA.

 

I just don't think it's a very smart move to go on a spree if one's scores aren't at least fair-good to begin with.  Just my opinion.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis

 

Lenders moved on.

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Message 52 of 90
Senior Contributor

Re: HP is not the only thing

Doesn't that link sort of argue against what you're saying?  Lenders back then seemingly gave anything to anyone before the crisis.  Wouldn't the take away from this be that lenders are more cautious as a result?  That said, I would think they would be quicker to pull the trigger now than in the past regarding an account that was seemingly extremely risky.  Perhaps there's something more obvious here that I'm overlooking?

Message 53 of 90
Established Contributor

Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote: 

 

5/3/16: 714->714 pull by Credco for mortgage refinance, absolutely grace period on my prior data during mortgage process

5/4/16: 714->714 minus one balance -> $0

5/14/16: 714->717 for a balance increase, so something else happened here

5/16/16: 717->717 pull by Factual Data for the HELOC, should be grace period/dedupe as it was during mortgage and is coded identically

~5/20/16: 717->714 balance change, $0->$21 number of tradelines with balances breakpoint

~5/27/16: 714->714 small balance to small balance, no change as a result but for tracking grace periods or what not

6/1 report pull: 714

6/4 report pull: 713 (the Credco inquiry should be counting now)

~6/14/16: 713->713 small balance to small balance

~6/19/16: 713->716 balance change $21->$0, number with revolvers with balances again

6/20/16: 716->710 when Discover pulled

6/25/16: 710->708 when Citibank pulled 

 


What were you inquiries prior to 5/3/16?

Message 54 of 90
Moderator

Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


JLK93 wrote:

Revelate wrote: 

 

5/3/16: 714->714 pull by Credco for mortgage refinance, absolutely grace period on my prior data during mortgage process

5/4/16: 714->714 minus one balance -> $0

5/14/16: 714->717 for a balance increase, so something else happened here

5/16/16: 717->717 pull by Factual Data for the HELOC, should be grace period/dedupe as it was during mortgage and is coded identically

~5/20/16: 717->714 balance change, $0->$21 number of tradelines with balances breakpoint

~5/27/16: 714->714 small balance to small balance, no change as a result but for tracking grace periods or what not

6/1 report pull: 714

6/4 report pull: 713 (the Credco inquiry should be counting now)

~6/14/16: 713->713 small balance to small balance

~6/19/16: 713->716 balance change $21->$0, number with revolvers with balances again

6/20/16: 716->710 when Discover pulled

6/25/16: 710->708 when Citibank pulled 

 


What were you inquiries prior to 5/3/16?


Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Message 55 of 90
Established Contributor

Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote:

JLK93 wrote:

Revelate wrote: 

 

5/3/16: 714->714 pull by Credco for mortgage refinance, absolutely grace period on my prior data during mortgage process

5/4/16: 714->714 minus one balance -> $0

5/14/16: 714->717 for a balance increase, so something else happened here

5/16/16: 717->717 pull by Factual Data for the HELOC, should be grace period/dedupe as it was during mortgage and is coded identically

~5/20/16: 717->714 balance change, $0->$21 number of tradelines with balances breakpoint

~5/27/16: 714->714 small balance to small balance, no change as a result but for tracking grace periods or what not

6/1 report pull: 714

6/4 report pull: 713 (the Credco inquiry should be counting now)

~6/14/16: 713->713 small balance to small balance

~6/19/16: 713->716 balance change $21->$0, number with revolvers with balances again

6/20/16: 716->710 when Discover pulled

6/25/16: 710->708 when Citibank pulled 

 


What were you inquiries prior to 5/3/16?



Those are from 2014? I thought you said that you already had 2 or 3 from the last year at the time of your 5/3/16 pull. I'm confused.

Message 56 of 90
Moderator

Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


JLK93 wrote:
Those are from 2014? I thought you said that you already had 2 or 3 from the last year at the time of your 5/3/16 pull. I'm confused.

Hah, no I was confused actually; mortgage refinance not mortgage mea culpa.

 

Cap One 8/23/15

Penfed 7/31/15

CBC Innovis 7/10/15 

Chase Home Finance dedupe

Settlement One dedupe

CBC Innovis dedupe

Chase Home Finance dedupe

 

Dedupes were clear on EQ Beacon 5, so only counting the last one.  Cap 1, Penfed, Last mortgage inquiry = 3.  Penfed coded as Credit Unions which was the maybe based on your assertion.  

 

 

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Message 57 of 90
Established Contributor

Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote:

JLK93 wrote:
Those are from 2014? I thought you said that you already had 2 or 3 from the last year at the time of your 5/3/16 pull. I'm confused.

Hah, no I was confused actually; mortgage refinance not mortgage mea culpa.

 

Cap One 8/23/15

Penfed 7/31/15

CBC Innovis 7/10/15 

Chase Home Finance dedupe

Settlement One dedupe

CBC Innovis dedupe

Chase Home Finance dedupe

 

Dedupes were clear on EQ Beacon 5, so only counting the last one.  Cap 1, Penfed, Last mortgage inquiry = 3.  Penfed coded as Credit Unions which was the maybe based on your assertion.  

 

 


What was the date of the earliest of you 5 mortgage dedupes?

 

My assertion, or theory, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with an inquiry being coded as a credit union. My theory is that the algorithms give the benefit of the doubt to inquiries that could have multiple purposes or might frequently be coded incorrectly. Obviously, this would never, theoretically, apply to Chase, Citi or FNBO. This is essentially what the Fair Isaac representative told the Mortgage Professor. Of course, they were not discussing credit card inquiries. However, it explains the fact that my BofA, Barclays, Synchrony, Capital One and Credit Union HPs are invariably buffered and deduped.

 

Credit Unions will generally re-use the same HP for a certain amount of time. Membership HPs are re-used for various purposes. At the time of the development of FICO 8, the developers had no way of knowing that FICO 8 'Classic' scores would not, someday,  be used by Credit Unions for multiple purposes. How the HPs are currently coded may be irrelevant.

 

It is not just Credit Unions. BofA uses FICO 8 'Classic' HPs for credit card inquiries. The developers of FICO 8 could not possibly have known that BofA would not, someday, use FICO 8 'Classic' HPs for credit cards and mortgages. My best, and most consistent, data is from BofA.

 

I have had many FICO 8 and FiCO 04 'Classic' HPs on TU and EQ over the last couple of years. All have been buffered and deduped. There have been no exceptions. Consistent results, without exception, is important.The consistency has to be relevant. Anyone can pick apart a single example and say that it doesn't prove anything. To my thinking that would not be intellectually honest. 

 

Message 58 of 90
Moderator

Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

Growl damned forum crash again; hopefully I remember my full train of thought but anyway.

 

I think that inquiries coded as Miscellaneous might get deduped along with Mortgage / Auto / Student Loan ones as you're correct in stating they can be multipurpose, and that does make more logical sense than keeping a database name of the reporters and those change all the time.  Some of my mortgage pulls were miscellaneous but all behaved appropriately under Beacon 5.0 at least.

 

I'm skeptical though on inquiries that go under credit cards or all banks though, deeply skeptical based on public literature from FICO which has never once said anything credit card like is deduped... but we babble about miscoding, and if it's coding as something generic, maybe.  How explicitly were yours coded if I may ask? (mea culpa if it's listed somewhere in the thread and I missed it)  I don't know if my data goes back far enough on TU for BOFA / Barclays to tease anything out, not many inquiries land there for me.

 

Mortgage pulls:

 

Chase 5/30/15

CBCInnovis 5/30/15

SettlementOne 6/3/15

Chase 7/3/15

CBCInnovis 7/10/15

 

All behaved grace / de-dupe correctly for Beacon 5.0; all within the dedupe window for FICO 8 (45 days) and Transunion at least publishes 45 days for FICO 04 as well and I could never find the reference for people suggesting FICO 04 was 30 days dedupe.  FICO 98 was consistently everywhere at 14 days.

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 771, TU 4 758, EX 2 758, EQ 8 795, TU 8 762, EX 8 786 (7/28/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, TU 4 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Message 59 of 90
Established Contributor

Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote:

Growl damned forum crash again; hopefully I remember my full train of thought but anyway.

 

I think that inquiries coded as Miscellaneous might get deduped along with Mortgage / Auto / Student Loan ones as you're correct in stating they can be multipurpose, and that does make more logical sense than keeping a database name of the reporters and those change all the time.  Some of my mortgage pulls were miscellaneous but all behaved appropriately under Beacon 5.0 at least.

 

I'm skeptical though on inquiries that go under credit cards or all banks though, deeply skeptical based on public literature from FICO which has never once said anything credit card like is deduped... but we babble about miscoding, and if it's coding as something generic, maybe.  How explicitly were yours coded if I may ask? (mea culpa if it's listed somewhere in the thread and I missed it)  I don't know if my data goes back far enough on TU for BOFA / Barclays to tease anything out, not many inquiries land there for me.

 

Mortgage pulls:

 

Chase 5/30/15

CBCInnovis 5/30/15

SettlementOne 6/3/15

Chase 7/3/15

CBCInnovis 7/10/15

 

All behaved grace / de-dupe correctly for Beacon 5.0; all within the dedupe window for FICO 8 (45 days) and Transunion at least publishes 45 days for FICO 04 as well and I could never find the reference for people suggesting FICO 04 was 30 days dedupe.  FICO 98 was consistently everywhere at 14 days.


Where are you getting the information about the coding of your inquiries from? Credit Karma? I don't see any coding on my paper reports from TU or EQ.

Message 60 of 90