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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

[ Edited ]

Things that make you go hmmm, bureaus are different, wonder if TU is just different.

 

Bear in mind this is TU monitoring at MF and well it's not perfect in my opinion.

 

Mortgage inquiries yah yah dedupe / grace period fun matching 1:1 with EQ.  This is where it starts getting wierd and maybe we're at the mercy of the resolution of the monitoring system though I didn't know we got reason codes with the score updates on TU, that's kinda neat TBH.

 

Reason codes 6/7:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Proportion of loan balances to loan amounts is too high.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.

Reason codes 7/9 (where SSL trick was found):

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Number of accounts with delinquency.

JCB inquiry 8/4/15 (Bank)

RBFCU inquiry 8/5/15 (Finance)

FIA CS (aka BOFA) 8/5/15 (Bank)

C1: 8/23/15 (Bank)

 

 

8/30 reason codes same as 7/9.

 

 

9/4 reason codes, which either the monitoring solution is frankly unreliable or you're spot on with the grace period with that JCB inquiry:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Too many inquiries last 12 months.

But where it goes to crap again for Transunion monitoring potentially, 9/10 reason codes:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Number of accounts with delinquency.

And just for the naysayers suggesting mortgage != SSL (sorry) 10/11 when the mortgage reported:

 

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Proportion of loan balances to loan amounts is too high.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.

 

Compare to 6/7.

 

 

My report was busy as hell unfortunately so I don't know if I can pull out discrete score shifts as the TU monitoring solution missed the inquiry from BOFA.  Anyway either something be wrong or Transunion handles inquiries differently (possibly, can't rule out it is a different bureau and therefore different algorithm) or maybe you're onto something on the grace/dedupe but I think it still might be binned.  Either way think we need more data, if there's something else I can get for you on TU let me know, unfortunately I don't have good data from the prior TU pulls, only goes back so far.

 

 

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 693, EX 2 719, EQ 8 732, TU 8 732, EX 8 728 (2/01/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote:

 

 deeply skeptical based on public literature from FICO which has never once said anything credit card like is deduped...


Can you show me where FICO literature has ever said that credit card inquiries are never deduped? When has FICO literature ever been considered to be trustworthy? Isn't there some FICO chart that shows that FICO scores 24 HPs?  I'm sure TT or  CGID could probably pull up the card.   We know that is not true.

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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


JLK93 wrote:

Revelate wrote:

Growl damned forum crash again; hopefully I remember my full train of thought but anyway.

 

I think that inquiries coded as Miscellaneous might get deduped along with Mortgage / Auto / Student Loan ones as you're correct in stating they can be multipurpose, and that does make more logical sense than keeping a database name of the reporters and those change all the time.  Some of my mortgage pulls were miscellaneous but all behaved appropriately under Beacon 5.0 at least.

 

I'm skeptical though on inquiries that go under credit cards or all banks though, deeply skeptical based on public literature from FICO which has never once said anything credit card like is deduped... but we babble about miscoding, and if it's coding as something generic, maybe.  How explicitly were yours coded if I may ask? (mea culpa if it's listed somewhere in the thread and I missed it)  I don't know if my data goes back far enough on TU for BOFA / Barclays to tease anything out, not many inquiries land there for me.

 

Mortgage pulls:

 

Chase 5/30/15

CBCInnovis 5/30/15

SettlementOne 6/3/15

Chase 7/3/15

CBCInnovis 7/10/15

 

All behaved grace / de-dupe correctly for Beacon 5.0; all within the dedupe window for FICO 8 (45 days) and Transunion at least publishes 45 days for FICO 04 as well and I could never find the reference for people suggesting FICO 04 was 30 days dedupe.  FICO 98 was consistently everywhere at 14 days.


Where are you getting the information about the coding of your inquiries from? Credit Karma? I don't see any coding on my paper reports from TU or EQ.


Yeah CK, wow that's wierd I have a TU report from today coincidentally (from a dispute not annualcreditreports) and it just says Individual for everything.  Dispute interface may not be 100% maybe?

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 693, EX 2 719, EQ 8 732, TU 8 732, EX 8 728 (2/01/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


JLK93 wrote:

Revelate wrote:

 

 deeply skeptical based on public literature from FICO which has never once said anything credit card like is deduped...


Can you show me where FICO literature has ever said that credit card inquiries are never deduped? When has FICO literature ever been considered to be trustworthy? Isn't there some FICO chart that shows that FICO scores 24 HPs?  I'm sure TT or  CGID could probably pull up the card.   We know that is not true.


I may not have been clear: FICO has been explicit on mortgage, auto, and student loan inquiries being deduped because of rate shopping in the published literature.  FICO hasn't published anything at least to my knowledge (admittedly) that says credit card apps are deduped.

 

I don't know that I've seen anything that explicitly says CC apps aren't deduped to your point though I would suggest while not proof it argues against it by the prior statements regarding other inquiry types.

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 693, EX 2 719, EQ 8 732, TU 8 732, EX 8 728 (2/01/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote:

Things that make you go hmmm, bureaus are different, wonder if TU is just different.

 

Bear in mind this is TU monitoring at MF and well it's not perfect in my opinion.

 

Mortgage inquiries yah yah dedupe / grace period fun matching 1:1 with EQ.  This is where it starts getting wierd and maybe we're at the mercy of the resolution of the monitoring system though I didn't know we got reason codes with the score updates on TU, that's kinda neat TBH.

 

Reason codes 6/7:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Proportion of loan balances to loan amounts is too high.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.

Reason codes 7/9 (where SSL trick was found):

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Number of accounts with delinquency.

JCB inquiry 8/4/15 (Bank)

RBFCU inquiry 8/5/15 (Finance CU membership app)

FIA CS (aka BOFA) 8/5/15 (Bank)

C1: 8/23/15 (Bank)

 

 

8/30 reason codes same as 7/9.

 

 

9/4 reason codes, which either the monitoring solution is frankly unreliable or you're spot on with the grace period with that JCB inquiry:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Too many inquiries last 12 months.

But where it goes to crap again for Transunion monitoring potentially, 9/10 reason codes:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Number of accounts with delinquency.

And just for the naysayers suggesting mortgage != SSL (sorry) 10/11 when the mortgage reported:

 

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Proportion of loan balances to loan amounts is too high.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.

 

Compare to 6/7.

 

 

My report was busy as hell unfortunately so I don't know if I can pull out discrete score shifts as the TU monitoring solution missed the inquiry from BOFA.  Anyway either something be wrong or Transunion handles inquiries differently (possibly, can't rule out it is a different bureau and therefore different algorithm) or maybe you're onto something on the grace/dedupe but I think it still might be binned.  Either way think we need more data, if there's something else I can get for you on TU let me know, unfortunately I don't have good data from the prior TU pulls, only goes back so far.

 

 


Thank you for the information Revelate. You asked how my inquiries were coded. I was asking where you are getting information about how your inquires are coded. I don't see any HP coding information on my paper reports. I assume you are getting this information from Credit Karma. I don't honestly know how accurate that is. However, this is how Credit Karma codes my inquiries:

 

TU:

Chase -- Bank

BofA -- Bank

Capital One -- Bank

Synchrony -- National Credit Card / Airlines

Navy FCU -- Credit Unions

 

EQ:

Capital One -- All Banks

Penfed -- Credit Unions

JFCU -- Credit Unions

AAFCU -- Credit Unions

 

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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

[ Edited ]

Revelate wrote:

Things that make you go hmmm, bureaus are different, wonder if TU is just different.

 

Bear in mind this is TU monitoring at MF and well it's not perfect in my opinion.

 

Mortgage inquiries yah yah dedupe / grace period fun matching 1:1 with EQ.  This is where it starts getting wierd and maybe we're at the mercy of the resolution of the monitoring system though I didn't know we got reason codes with the score updates on TU, that's kinda neat TBH.

 

Reason codes 6/7:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Proportion of loan balances to loan amounts is too high.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.

Reason codes 7/9 (where SSL trick was found):

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Number of accounts with delinquency.

JCB inquiry 8/4/15 (Bank)

RBFCU inquiry 8/5/15 (Finance)

FIA CS (aka BOFA) 8/5/15 (Bank)

C1: 8/23/15 (Bank)

 

 

8/30 reason codes same as 7/9.

 

 

9/4 reason codes, which either the monitoring solution is frankly unreliable or you're spot on with the grace period with that JCB inquiry:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Too many inquiries last 12 months.

But where it goes to crap again for Transunion monitoring potentially, 9/10 reason codes:

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.
  • Number of accounts with delinquency.

And just for the naysayers suggesting mortgage != SSL (sorry) 10/11 when the mortgage reported:

 

  • Derogatory public record or collection filed.
  • Length of time accounts have been established.
  • Proportion of loan balances to loan amounts is too high.
  • Level of delinquency on accounts.

 

Compare to 6/7.

 

 

My report was busy as hell unfortunately so I don't know if I can pull out discrete score shifts as the TU monitoring solution missed the inquiry from BOFA.  Anyway either something be wrong or Transunion handles inquiries differently (possibly, can't rule out it is a different bureau and therefore different algorithm) or maybe you're onto something on the grace/dedupe but I think it still might be binned.  Either way think we need more data, if there's something else I can get for you on TU let me know, unfortunately I don't have good data from the prior TU pulls, only goes back so far.

 

 


Well color me surprised: grace period might be true and binning or dedupe might be true on my data and the MF TU monitoring solution spot on.  Guess what I had from 9/10/2014 precisely one year to the day before that?  An inquiry from an office rental application

 

SCREENING PR   Sep 10, 2014  Misc.
 
Man just one more inquiry after 9/10/15 might've sorted this.
 
Edit: to be clear I don't see this on EX or EQ but as stated above, maybe TU is different.
Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 693, EX 2 719, EQ 8 732, TU 8 732, EX 8 728 (2/01/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

[ Edited ]

Stupid inquiry math time: the expected way first.

 

Pre mortgage: one inquiry from 9/10/14

Mortgage fun: 2 inquiries (reasonable assumption of they're all being done right based on other bureaus and TU's score too)

JCB: 3 inquiries, 8/4/15

RBFCU: 4 inquiries (maybe, this one is coded differently according to CK)

FIA CS: 5 inquiries

C1: 6 inquiries

9/4/15: -4 points, reason code states too many inquries w/in 12 months

9/10/15: +4 points, back down to 5 inquiries, reason code gone

 

Sure looks like grace period is legit on that JCB inquiry, but I should've taken a drop earlier on the mortgage one if we didn't have binning and I didn't from the looks of it though I'll check my score shifts later tonight after dinner to be sure but I looked for one earlier when summing up the data and didn't see one matched to that.

 

Looks like either binning or dedupe on the RBFCU/FIA/C1 inquiries, to 6, back to 5 expected number and the score changed.

 

If dedupe:

Pre-mortgage: 1

Mortgage fun: 2

JCB/FBCFU/FIA/C1: 3

9/10/15: 2

 

**bleep** it I need to take some dumb inquiries on TU to test this I guess, if we can nail down the breakpoint of TU inquiry bins assuming they exist by doing say an inquiry every 31+ days over a few months from a known state think we can knock this out based on my dataset.  Anyone see problems with that test plan?

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 693, EX 2 719, EQ 8 732, TU 8 732, EX 8 728 (2/01/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


Revelate wrote:


JCB inquiry 8/4/15 (Bank)

RBFCU inquiry 8/5/15 (Finance)

FIA CS (aka BOFA) 8/5/15 (Bank)

C1: 8/23/15 (Bank) 


Do you have any scores for these alerts?

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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project


JLK93 wrote:

Revelate wrote:


JCB inquiry 8/4/15 (Bank)

RBFCU inquiry 8/5/15 (Finance)

FIA CS (aka BOFA) 8/5/15 (Bank)

C1: 8/23/15 (Bank) 


Do you have any scores for these alerts?


None all flat to your point; grace period definitely looks legit on TU, and maybe dedupe or binning on the result.   Think we can test this though, see message before this one.

Starting Score: EQ 5 561, TU 98 567, EX 2 599 (12/30/11)
Current Score: EQ 5 693, EX 2 719, EQ 8 732, TU 8 732, EX 8 728 (2/01/17)
Goal Score:    EQ 5 750, EX 2 750, EQ 8 800, TU 8 Blah, EX 8 800 (01/01/18)


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Re: Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

[ Edited ]

Revelate wrote:

Stupid inquiry math time: the expected way first.

 

Pre mortgage: one inquiry from 9/10/14

Mortgage fun: 2 inquiries (reasonable assumption of they're all being done right based on other bureaus and TU's score too)

JCB: 3 inquiries, 8/4/15

RBFCU: 4 inquiries (maybe, this one is coded differently according to CK)

FIA CS: 5 inquiries

C1: 6 inquiries

9/4/15: -4 points, reason code states too many inquries w/in 12 months

9/10/15: +4 points, back down to 5 inquiries, reason code gone

 

Sure looks like grace period is legit on that JCB inquiry, but I should've taken a drop earlier on the mortgage one if we didn't have binning and I didn't from the looks of it though I'll check my score shifts later tonight after dinner to be sure but I looked for one earlier when summing up the data and didn't see one matched to that.

 

Looks like either binning or dedupe on the RBFCU/FIA/C1 inquiries, to 6, back to 5 expected number and the score changed.

 

If dedupe:

Pre-mortgage: 1

Mortgage fun: 2

JCB/FBCFU/FIA/C1: 3

9/10/15: 2

 

**bleep** it I need to take some dumb inquiries on TU to test this I guess, if we can nail down the breakpoint of TU inquiry bins assuming they exist by doing say an inquiry every 31+ days over a few months from a known state think we can knock this out based on my dataset.  Anyone see problems with that test plan?


Why not try duplicating my test? I took 5 TU 08 HPs over 4 days. 5 days might be better. No FICO score change until 31st day.

 

Or duplicate my EQ data. I took 4 EQ 04 and NextGen HPs over a week. No FICO score change for 31 days.

 

I'm still extremely interested to see how Experian treats BofA HPs.

 

 

EDIT: The test would be more conclusive if you could get your reports free of major delinquencies. It seems like you should be able to get rid of your liens. However, I know nothing about dirty files.

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