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Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

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bass_playr
Established Contributor

Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

Just got an email update that my score changed.  So, I log in.  My FICO score dropped 32 points.  So I look at the update. The one and only change to the entry is a note placed on the entry that I disputed the entry and reinvestigation is in progress.....??  Can anyone help me to understand how exactly that note being inserted would cause the score to drop 32 points?  I was under the impression that disputing entries by itself does not drop your score....There's literally no other change.  

Message 1 of 13
12 REPLIES 12
thornback
Senior Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

What aspect of the account did you dispute?

FICO excludes the disputed information, not the entire account, from its scoring calculations. Depending on what you were disputing, the exclusion of the information could positively or negatively affect your score until the dispute process is complete.

The score drop could also be related to something else and the dispute notation, being an alertable event, prompted an updated score pull. The drop could have occurred due to some other, non-alertable event, prior to the dispute notation being added. Are you positive nothing is different?
Personal Aphorism:"Forget What You Feel, Remember What You Deserve"
Starting FICO 8s | 09/2017: EX 641 ✦ EQ 634 ✦ TU 647
Current FICO 8s | 04/2022: EX 796 ✦ EQ 793 ✦ TU 790
Current FICO 9s | 04/2022: EX 790 ✦ EQ 788 ✦ TU 782
2022 Goal Score | 800s

My AAoA:
4.6 years not incl. AU / 4.9 years incl. AU
My AoOA: 9.2 years not incl. AU / 11.2 years incl. AU
Inquiries: EX 0/12 ✦ EQ 0/12 ✦ TU 0/12
Report Status: Clean
Garden Status:  


Without patience, we will learn less in life. We will see less. We will feel less. We will hear less. Ironically, rush and more usually mean less.
Message 2 of 13
bass_playr
Established Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

Hi, thanks for replying

 

First, I am positive that nothing else changed.  I literally had the conversation two days ago with the CRA.  In that time, my report has not changed at all.  Even in the entry where the new note was placed, that furnisher did not even update the numbers.  It still shows the same balances, the same past due amount, the same everything.  They still report the account, which has been closed since 2010 or so, as an open account.  Nothing has changed at all.  Payment history, same.  DOFD, same.  Everything's the same.  I went line by line, and nothing has changed, except for the note that states that reinvestigation is in progress.

 

Second, there are no changes in any of the other entries either.  No new updates.  No hard pulls.  Nothing.  The report looks exactly the same as it did two days ago, but the change took place yesterday and showed up in my email this morning. I noticed that you said that FICO disregards what is disputed, but I cannot see how removing an account that claims to be about $90K delinquent would not increase the score.  I know that 35% of the score is payment history.  Well, my payment history with other accounts is nearly all good.  I have a single $111 account showing up as a collection, but that was already on there and it's already in process of being disputed.  It appears to be an old account, not even sure yet what it is, and LVNV is currently reporting it, but that was first reported months ago.  This is the only other negative account.  As far as age of accounts, this one is 11 years old.  I have a couple of 9 year old accounts--paid in full by now--showing.  So while I expect the AoA to drop a bit, I cannot imagine that disregarding the account as a whole would make my score drop like this.  It certainly did not make my score drop last time I disputed it.

 

 

I disputed the existence of the account entirely, as well as the DOFD having been changed---I even sent the CRA evidence of this.  I also disputed the balance because it's wildly incorrect.  This account, even if everything reported were legit, would still have had to be removed last year because it's been claimed as delinquent since early 2010.  So, taking the 7.5 years, it was supposed to be removed as of August 2017 at the latest.  But they keep changing the DOFD.  At one point, it was set to come off in 8/17.  Then, that went to 12/17.  Now, it's 2/19.  The furnisher keeps changing it.  But according to the OC, the account was accelerated in 2010 and the delinquency has never been paid off.  

 

I signed up for the ultimate 3B here on MyFico.  I got an email alert that my score dropped specifically because this one entry had a change.  And the only change was the note about reinvestigation.  Makes zero sense to me....how can that drop a score just because I disputed?  

Message 3 of 13
thornback
Senior Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

If this account was 11 years old while your others are ~9 years old, then that would make this your oldest account.  While removing it may not affect your average age of accounts much, it does drop the age of your oldest account quite a bit.   I lost 12-15 points across all three bureaus when my oldest account (7.5 years) was removed, my next oldest account was 5 years old -- so that 2.5 year drop resulted in a score decrease.  Since the account was negative, I believe the 12-15 point drop was actually the difference between points gained for removing a negative and points lost for age.   

 

As for the alerts -- what I was getting at is sometimes myFico alerts do not have a direct correlation to score change.  Some score changes occur for non-alertable events - such as aging - so even though the score changes, you will not receive an alert.   However, if you maybe had a minor increase or decrease in the balance of an account - while that in and of itself may not affect your score, you would receive an alert for this change.  The new pull of your score due to this alert will reflect a score change - but that change would be due to account aging, not the minor change in a balance.   

 

Since you are positive there were no other changes on your reports, then it's likely that the score change is related to the dispute -- it's possible removing this account, while negative, may still result in a score decrease.  It is also possible that since you are disputing the dates, that the negative payment history is still accounted for in scoring at the moment, so the decrease is only due to excluding the age of the account.  If the dispute resolution results in a deletion, you may gain points for the removal of negative info but also lose points for the reduction in the age of your oldest account.  So the final effect on your score may be no change (meaning it returns to where it was prior to the dispute), a slight decrease, or a slight increase, depending on how those numbers play out - i.e the benefit of removing negative info vs. the penalty for lowering the age of your oldest account. 

Personal Aphorism:"Forget What You Feel, Remember What You Deserve"
Starting FICO 8s | 09/2017: EX 641 ✦ EQ 634 ✦ TU 647
Current FICO 8s | 04/2022: EX 796 ✦ EQ 793 ✦ TU 790
Current FICO 9s | 04/2022: EX 790 ✦ EQ 788 ✦ TU 782
2022 Goal Score | 800s

My AAoA:
4.6 years not incl. AU / 4.9 years incl. AU
My AoOA: 9.2 years not incl. AU / 11.2 years incl. AU
Inquiries: EX 0/12 ✦ EQ 0/12 ✦ TU 0/12
Report Status: Clean
Garden Status:  


Without patience, we will learn less in life. We will see less. We will feel less. We will hear less. Ironically, rush and more usually mean less.
Message 4 of 13
bass_playr
Established Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

The thing is, I don't have any accounts newer than 3 years old.  I have good AoA even by MyFico's recommendations.  The one issue that really hurts my score is the huge number of late pays showing and nearly all of those are showing on this one entry.  35% of your FICO is payment history, and the payment history is the biggest issue.  I cannot imagine that removing an 11 year old account would drop my score by 37 points because of age of accounts when I have others that are nearly as old.  Having tradelines that are over 9 years old should definitely minimize the AoA effect of this one as far as impacting the score overall, but removing $90K in negative balance and years of reported late pays---they reported that this account has been 180+ days each month for more than 5 years--should be a bigger factor, I would think.

Message 5 of 13
thornback
Senior Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

You're missing the fact that this is your *oldest account*. I am not talking about the average age of your accounts. In scoring your length of credit, FICO considers the age of the oldest account, youngest account, and average age. Combined, this data makes up 15% of your score.

It is possible that while this dispute is in progress, the age of this account is being excluded from scoring because you disputed the dates. So ~2 - 3 years of age has been eliminated from your length of credit as your oldest account is now 9 years instead of 11.

The late pays are irrelevant at the moment because your dispute was about dates, not payments. So the late payment information is still counting against you in the scoring, but the age is no longer benefiting you because FICO only excludes the information being disputed, not the entire account.

You won't know what your score truly is until the dispute is resolved. Right now, your score is based on incomplete data.

If the account is ultimately removed, you have to consider the penalty of removing 2- 3 years of account history vs. the benefit of removing late payments. It's very possible you'll end up with a higher score, but it's also possible you break even or even lose a few points.
Personal Aphorism:"Forget What You Feel, Remember What You Deserve"
Starting FICO 8s | 09/2017: EX 641 ✦ EQ 634 ✦ TU 647
Current FICO 8s | 04/2022: EX 796 ✦ EQ 793 ✦ TU 790
Current FICO 9s | 04/2022: EX 790 ✦ EQ 788 ✦ TU 782
2022 Goal Score | 800s

My AAoA:
4.6 years not incl. AU / 4.9 years incl. AU
My AoOA: 9.2 years not incl. AU / 11.2 years incl. AU
Inquiries: EX 0/12 ✦ EQ 0/12 ✦ TU 0/12
Report Status: Clean
Garden Status:  


Without patience, we will learn less in life. We will see less. We will feel less. We will hear less. Ironically, rush and more usually mean less.
Message 6 of 13
bass_playr
Established Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

[QUOTE]You're missing the fact that this is your *oldest account*. I am not talking about the average age of your accounts. In scoring your length of credit, FICO considers the age of the oldest account, youngest account, and average age. Combined, this data makes up 15% of your score.[/QUOTE]

 

I'm not missing it.  It actually decreases my average account age by about 1 year.  That's it.  Dropping from an average of, say, 9 years, down to 2 years, I could see a big drop maybe.  But not from 9 to 8.  That means that the average age of my credit accounts is more than the 7 year reporting time for negative marks--even without that one entry.  Please help me to understand how that could drop a score by 37 points, especially when the single biggest factor in calculating a score is payment history, and this one shows 100% late---which is false.  It also accounts for nearly ALL of the late payments showing in the total payment history of all accounts reported.  That alone carries 35% of a FICO score, so how could something that carries 15% and only decreases from 9 to 8 years in age outweigh such a huge removal of negative payment history?

 

[QUOTE]It is possible that while this dispute is in progress, the age of this account is being excluded from scoring because you disputed the dates. So ~2 - 3 years of age has been eliminated from your length of credit as your oldest account is now 9 years instead of 11.[/QUOTE]

 

OK, but again, that's only dropping me 2 years for oldest account, and 1 year for average.  But that's still only 15% of the score.  Removing YEARS of 180+ day late reported payments, which accounts for 35% of the score, and leaves me with more than 90% paying on time, should have a much larger affect than that.

 

[QUOTE]The late pays are irrelevant at the moment because your dispute was about dates, not payments.[/QUOTE]

 

This is not correct.  I disputed dates.  I disputed payments.  I disputed the total balance they claimed was owed.  I disputed everything about the account---including its very existence.  And here's why the late pays are not irrelevant....the biggest issue is the DOFD changing.  So, if FICO ignores disputed entries when calculating the score, then they would have to be ignoring everything about this account.  I disputed the entire entry.  If they ignore, and I disputed due to DOFD being changed, then they would have to ignore the whole reported entry, since my main claim is that it was supposed to be removed completely from my report last year.  That means they are not able to consider the payment history affect as irrelevant, and neither can we.  If they are only ignoring the age of account scoring issue temporarily due to my dispute, that makes zero sense because a completed investigation would require that the entire entry be removed---not just the affect it would have on my age of accounts.  Removing the whole entry means removing all the late pays they claimed, as well as the delinquent balance they claimed, etc.  So none of these can be passed off as irrelevant.

 

 

 

Message 7 of 13
thornback
Senior Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

When I asked you, specifically, what information was disputed, you stated DOFD, balance, and the existence of the entire account (whatever that means).   

 


@bass_playrwrote:

I disputed the existence of the account entirely, as well as the DOFD having been changed---I even sent the CRA evidence of this.  I also disputed the balance because it's wildly incorrect.  This account, even if everything reported were legit, would still have had to be removed last year because it's been claimed as delinquent since early 2010.  So, taking the 7.5 years, it was supposed to be removed as of August 2017 at the latest.  But they keep changing the DOFD.  At one point, it was set to come off in 8/17.  Then, that went to 12/17.  Now, it's 2/19.  The furnisher keeps changing it.  But according to the OC, the account was accelerated in 2010 and the delinquency has never been paid off.  

 

 

 

You did not clarify that payment history was included as part of your dispute, which is why I stated it is irrelevant *while the account is in dispute* because that information would not be excluded from scoring during the dispute process.   You also don't know how the dispute was coded by the bureaus.  You don't know what information they marked to exclude as 'in dispute' and what information they didn't.  We all know disputes don't always go as intended - the bureaus don't always investigate properly or even the entirety of your dispute.  

 

Also - I'm not sure why you think dropping aaoa by 1 year and the age of the oldest account by 2 could not yield a significant score decrease - especially on a dirty report.  Others have reported data points of losing anywhere between 10-30 points for this very reason - and it varies by profile.   

 

I was only trying to provide some possible reasons as to why your score was affected as it was by this dispute. Much of FICO scoring is unknown and therefore, we make our best guess as to the cause of score changes based on what we do know about scoring and the cumulative data reported by others.   I cannot see your report, I can only suggest possibilities based on the information you provide and the experiences had by myself and others.   There is no need for you to become agitated (as the tone of your posts suggests) because you are not satisfied with my response of what the possible cause of this temporary change in score may be.    You can continue to insist that my guess is completely incorrect because it is unfathomable to you, that is fine - but the fact is, no one is going to be able to give you a definitive answer to your question because it is in the realm of the unknown.  All you can do is take the presumptions of others into consideration -  then wait for your dispute to resolve for the final outcome.  

 

Good luck. 

Personal Aphorism:"Forget What You Feel, Remember What You Deserve"
Starting FICO 8s | 09/2017: EX 641 ✦ EQ 634 ✦ TU 647
Current FICO 8s | 04/2022: EX 796 ✦ EQ 793 ✦ TU 790
Current FICO 9s | 04/2022: EX 790 ✦ EQ 788 ✦ TU 782
2022 Goal Score | 800s

My AAoA:
4.6 years not incl. AU / 4.9 years incl. AU
My AoOA: 9.2 years not incl. AU / 11.2 years incl. AU
Inquiries: EX 0/12 ✦ EQ 0/12 ✦ TU 0/12
Report Status: Clean
Garden Status:  


Without patience, we will learn less in life. We will see less. We will feel less. We will hear less. Ironically, rush and more usually mean less.
Message 8 of 13
bass_playr
Established Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

OK, first, I appreciate your responses, but you are reading typed words on a screen.  There is no tone conveyed there.  I am not at all agitated with you.  Please do not impart things to me that are not legitimate.  I'm not at all agitated with you or your responses.

 

Second, you said that I disputed the date.  That's incorrect, as I originally stated, I disputed much more.  I'm sorry if I did not state that clearly enough for you to understand, but clearly I did state that a lot more than just dates were disputed.  That's why I told you that your reply was not correct, because it wasn't.  That was not out of agitation, it was out of truth.  

 

Third, I fully understand that AoA affects score.  But when the dispute is such that the question is whether or not the entire report should remain, then FICO is not only going to temporarily ignore the date.  They would have to temporarily ignore the entire entry, in keeping with their practice of disregarding disputed elements when calculating scores.  To clarify, they have repeatedly changed the payment history, the DOFD, and added thousands to the balance they claim as owed incorrectly.  Not only are all of those in dispute, but the existence of the entry as a whole is also in dispute because they changed the DOFD to illegally keep reporting.  And I did it this way on purpose so that they would have to address more than just one question.  

 

In the end, it's worth it to get this off the report even if it means I lose 37 points, because it is fraudulent, illegal, and the payment history would continue to harm my score if they keep reporting/re-aging for who knows how long.  This is a MASSIVE hit to payment history.  They claim that I never made a payment on time through the whole life of the account, for example.  It's ridiculous.  

 

Finally, Please stop misstating what I have said.  I NEVER said that an AAoA change "could not yield a significant score decrease".  What I Actually said was that since FICO relies more heavily on payment history, I cannot see how AAoA reducing by one year could overshadow such a huge change in my on-time payment history, or such a decrease in collections amount on my report as a whole.  You need to understand that my payment history is over 90% on time when you remove this one account.  You also need to understand that this one account adds more than five years of "180+ days late" to that payment history, and as shown, it claims I was never on time.  If that accounts for the largest single portion of the FICO score, then I cannot see how a lesser variable that changes a LOT less than the payment history would change could carry more weight in their scoring.  You cannot just chop off half of what someone says, respond only to the remaining half, and expect to get it right.  Please, I appreciate your responses, but you're not going to help anyone by replying to portions of what they said, and ignoring the rest of what they really did say.  Thank you.

Message 9 of 13
thornback
Senior Contributor

Re: Can someone help me to understand this? Score drop because I disputed???

Ok. Good luck.
Personal Aphorism:"Forget What You Feel, Remember What You Deserve"
Starting FICO 8s | 09/2017: EX 641 ✦ EQ 634 ✦ TU 647
Current FICO 8s | 04/2022: EX 796 ✦ EQ 793 ✦ TU 790
Current FICO 9s | 04/2022: EX 790 ✦ EQ 788 ✦ TU 782
2022 Goal Score | 800s

My AAoA:
4.6 years not incl. AU / 4.9 years incl. AU
My AoOA: 9.2 years not incl. AU / 11.2 years incl. AU
Inquiries: EX 0/12 ✦ EQ 0/12 ✦ TU 0/12
Report Status: Clean
Garden Status:  


Without patience, we will learn less in life. We will see less. We will feel less. We will hear less. Ironically, rush and more usually mean less.
Message 10 of 13
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