Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
[ Edited ]03-24-2012 10:55 AM - edited 03-24-2012 10:57 AM
Think about how brilliant the banks are and how stupid (in general) we are to embrace their marketing. In any given month we spend X amount on food, gas, living, entertainment, etc. The banks dangle a false carrot in front of us and get us to pay everything with their cards, no cash, no checks and since the fees on debit cards are now limited, no debit card. Every single thing we buy we make sure we use a card from $2 at starbucks, to $6 at subway to $100 a week at Safeway. We are getting cash back ! Who's cash is it anyway?
The CCC get their swipe fees on everything, all day everyday. Whatever you used to buy with cash or a check, bingo swipe fees. Put your cash on a prepaid AmEx, swipe fees and the float. Merchants pay for these swipe fees, you pay with higher prices. In theory you pay off the balance every month, as you would have if you had used cash/checks/debit, but no this month I got a new iPad to I'll catch up next month, swipe fees and interest. Rewarding you for using a card? Nah, the banks win by getting 100% of your spending going through their cards in swipe fees and perhaps interest. Can you imagine getting your paycheck and having 2.75% "disappear" because you get charged for getting money? Merchants put up with this daily - some reward.
I prefer a low interest CC as I usually PIF every month and if I can't afford to PIF I don't buy it unless I get 00% financing - couldn't care less about "rewards" and yeah, I pay cash for my coffee at Starbucks.
Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
03-24-2012 11:25 AM
pipeguy wrote:
Low interest cards and debit cards also cost merchants when you swipe them. Not as much but it is not free. Merchants are not required to accept cards at all. Some still do not and there are people who will use cash there instead. Cheques can also cost because some companies charge to process them. I just do not see what the reason would be to use a credit card if you do not get anything in return. To keep it active you can just charge a few things but if you spend $500 on a 2 percent card you get $10 back. No one is going to make a down payment with $10 but it is ten dollars that you would not get back otherwise.
I see a lot more than 2.75 percent come out of my pay, for things I do not and will not ever use. However, I have no choice in the matter. Merchants can choose to not accept cards and keep all of the profits. Prices in stores are marked up at least fifty percent around here so if a merchant has to "sacrifice" a puny three of that profit I do not think they will go out of business. They are never worried about my finances so I see no reason to worry about theirs.
Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
03-24-2012 01:12 PM
pipeguy wrote:Think about how brilliant the banks are and how stupid (in general) we are to embrace their marketing. In any given month we spend X amount on food, gas, living, entertainment, etc. The banks dangle a false carrot in front of us and get us to pay everything with their cards, no cash, no checks and since the fees on debit cards are now limited, no debit card. Every single thing we buy we make sure we use a card from $2 at starbucks, to $6 at subway to $100 a week at Safeway. We are getting cash back ! Who's cash is it anyway?
The CCC get their swipe fees on everything, all day everyday. Whatever you used to buy with cash or a check, bingo swipe fees. Put your cash on a prepaid AmEx, swipe fees and the float. Merchants pay for these swipe fees, you pay with higher prices. In theory you pay off the balance every month, as you would have if you had used cash/checks/debit, but no this month I got a new iPad to I'll catch up next month, swipe fees and interest. Rewarding you for using a card? Nah, the banks win by getting 100% of your spending going through their cards in swipe fees and perhaps interest. Can you imagine getting your paycheck and having 2.75% "disappear" because you get charged for getting money? Merchants put up with this daily - some reward.
I prefer a low interest CC as I usually PIF every month and if I can't afford to PIF I don't buy it unless I get 00% financing - couldn't care less about "rewards" and yeah, I pay cash for my coffee at Starbucks.
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Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
[ Edited ]03-24-2012 04:16 PM - edited 03-24-2012 04:37 PM
The Prime rate right now is 3.25% and the banks are paying 0.50% to 1.05% on CD's and savings account, in other words the cost of money to the banks is very low. Yet, credit card rates - the most common ones not the low interest super prime basic cards - typically run 15% to 24% and include some form of "rewards". Charge off rates, meaning accounts that go into collection at 180 days late, are running 2.5% to 4.0% which is pretty low too (historically). Now if by chance you can't pay in full every single month, and based on the number of myFICO member that tell tales of getting into credit card problems I'd say most (75% plus) people carry a balance month to month, this is where that high APR really gets you in trouble.
The marketing I was talking about is where credit card issuers have trained the public into juggling 4-6-8 cards to get 1.5% here, 2% there, 3% on groceries, 5% on gas for 30 days if you spend $3000 etc etc etc. You are juggling a pocketful of cards running everything you spend on this card or that card to get some "cash back" with the banks getting their "vig" for everything you spend, and we play this game. Many of the cards that offer the "best rewards game" carry an annual fee on top of prime + too much interest rates. I'm willing to bet that most card holders don't use many of the marketed "benefits" of their mega-bank ultra elite rewards cards and those that do need to play the juggle the cards game as almost a full time hobby.
History (stats) shows that people spend more when they use credit cards vs cash, because a card does not feel like real money like cash does. When the banks were able to charge full boat fees on debit cards they were highly pushed by banks, no credit money outlay for the banks, it was your money in your checking account. Now that fees on debit cards are controlled (greatly reduced), you'd think using a debit card was like pasting $100 bills to your forehead and walking drunk in a bad part of town - NO, its the "vig" and banks are make less when you spend your direct money using a debit card. You might not care that the mega-store or the local merchant has to pay a swipe fee for that coke you bought and he can afford it when you bought that new laptop because "he has a profit margin built in", but the fact is merchants pay these fees and costs are passed on to you in the form of higher prices.
The ONLY winner in this game is the CCC, they get AF's, they get prime plus too much interest APR and they get swipe fees for every penny run through their cards. You and I get a new hobby of juggling 4-6-8 cards for the rewards flavor of month, while we force feed credit cards for every everyday purchase in our quest to get a new toaster with our rewards points. Prime rates are posted just so the CCC cover their butt if the cost of money goes up because its the 15% to 20% on top of Prime that is their real interest margin (not counting AF's and/or swipe fees).
Discover just reported a 36% increase in profits, AmEx, MC/V are showing similar results. Credit Card issuers are showing increased profits with low charge off rates. Every time there is additional "regulation" such as the Card Act or limiting of debit swipe fees you hear doom and gloom from the issuers, yet it doesn't happen as they market their products to sub-prime, prime and super prime customers. AmEx is in 3rd place with the number of cards issued and their EOY SEC report stated currently 98 million active cards issued with a push to increase that number. These "profits" come from the thin air of swipe fees, AF's and Prime PLUS margins. It's incredible to me the amount of money skimmed in vig by these issuers with the public happily playing their "wack a mole" rewards game.
The "rewards game? ? I'd rather spend my free time playing golf....
Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
[ Edited ]03-24-2012 11:09 PM - edited 03-25-2012 04:03 PM
pipeguy wrote:
The ONLY winner in this game is the CCC, they get AF's, they get prime plus too much interest APR and they get swipe fees for every penny run through their cards.
Well. none of my cards have AF, and i don't spend more then i can pay back, unless its an emergency or i know i am in an economically stable position to do so. i have 9 major cards and 4 store cards, and my current average purchase apr is about 8 percent. thats like 4.75 + prime. (0% offers are easier to come by nowadays.)
i don't care that the little guy is charging me more for the soda for using my card. i get some of it back anyway in cash rewards. in a way as i see it; merchants are helping to pave the way to a well built, solid, strong credit profile. the little guy is happy i bring him business. i don't care that i am playing the card game. i like having to seemingly foolishly juggle credit cards. it just proves to future opportunity providers that i am a SOLID green.
i feel my only mistake here is that i am choosing to use cards that are provided by mega banks that are the least contributing for the local communities. i intend to eventually maintain credit with mainly small banks and credit unions.
still want that ventureone card though.
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Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
03-25-2012 06:38 AM
pipeguy wrote:
History (stats) shows that people spend more when they use credit cards vs cash, because a card does not feel like real money like cash does. When the banks were able to charge full boat fees on debit cards they were highly pushed by banks, no credit money outlay for the banks, it was your money in your checking account. Now that fees on debit cards are controlled (greatly reduced), you'd think using a debit card was like pasting $100 bills to your forehead and walking drunk in a bad part of town
It is a good thing they did not review me because they would be wrong. I do not spend any more money now that I did when I used a debit card or cash. In fact I think I actually spend less. Most of my money gets put away as I like watching the balance grow, not shrink. I do not buy into the dangers of using a debit card but it would be an inconvienve if one of my accounts was drained. Banks may credit back some funds but will not credit back all until the investigation is complete. My card has never been compromised but there is always a chance I guess. Also in using a debit card you get nothing in return. If prices really are up because of rewards, not using a rewards card means you are paying even more.
scottwagnon wrote:
Well. none of my cards have AF, and i don't spend more then i can pay back
That is what I was saying. The banks do not make any money off of me. Off of the merchants when I swipe the card yes, but not me personally. I have never paid interest and I have never and never will pay a fee to be able to use a card. I also only use the card that gets the most cashback. American Express Blue Cash Everyday will not see the light of day until July when the Freedom stops offering 5% on groceries. After that the Freedom will see no more action. So because I maximize rewards the banks lose even more money on me.
I know there are people who get sucked into marketing and end up in debt and with trashed credit. I do not think people should blame the banks for this as banks do not force anyone to do anything. The banks do what will make them the most profit just like the rest of the world.
I have gotten around $1500 this year from checking account and credit card promotions. I have also gotten over $600 in cashback. I personally would say that is a big win for me.
Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
03-25-2012 04:07 PM
navigatethis12 wrote:
American Express Blue Cash Everyday will not see the light of day until July when the Freedom stops offering 5% on groceries. After that the Freedom will see no more action. So because I maximize rewards the banks lose even more money on me.
i would have said almost exactly the same thing, as i also have exactly the same agenda; except i may continue using the freedom after july, but not as much. right now it isn't seeing any action.
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Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
[ Edited ]03-25-2012 05:58 PM - edited 03-25-2012 05:59 PM
navigatethis12 wrote:
I know there are people who get sucked into marketing and end up in debt and with trashed credit. I do not think people should blame the banks for this as banks do not force anyone to do anything. The banks do what will make them the most profit just like the rest of the world.
I have gotten around $1500 this year from checking account and credit card promotions. I have also gotten over $600 in cashback. I personally would say that is a big win for me.
Do you think the "typical Card holder" spends $30k+ a year in just specific categories to pick up $1500 a year?
As far as the banks or CCC's these are the same people that spend $40-$50 million on consultants and market research to devise ways to maximize overdraft fees to the tune of over $100 billion in profits. These practices have resulted in "refunds to customers" to the tune of several Billion - seems they came out fine in the end.
Note that I am NOT anti-bank and I have no problem with CCC's making their money (profit) off their cards. What I find incredible is that the banks (and CCC's) have brainwashed (conditioned) us the public into thinking that every dollar we spend has to go through one of their payment processes so when we spend our money, the "issuers" get their skim / vig off of every transaction.
In most cases, I'd guess over 75% or more, the Prime + Margin APR plus Annual Fee (if there is one) more than erases any rewards.
Re: Credit card APRs compared to Prime Rate
03-25-2012 09:19 PM
pipeguy wrote:
navigatethis12 wrote:
I know there are people who get sucked into marketing and end up in debt and with trashed credit. I do not think people should blame the banks for this as banks do not force anyone to do anything. The banks do what will make them the most profit just like the rest of the world.
I have gotten around $1500 this year from checking account and credit card promotions. I have also gotten over $600 in cashback. I personally would say that is a big win for me.
Do you think the "typical Card holder" spends $30k+ a year in just specific categories to pick up $1500 a year?
As far as the banks or CCC's these are the same people that spend $40-$50 million on consultants and market research to devise ways to maximize overdraft fees to the tune of over $100 billion in profits. These practices have resulted in "refunds to customers" to the tune of several Billion - seems they came out fine in the end.
Note that I am NOT anti-bank and I have no problem with CCC's making their money (profit) off their cards. What I find incredible is that the banks (and CCC's) have brainwashed (conditioned) us the public into thinking that every dollar we spend has to go through one of their payment processes so when we spend our money, the "issuers" get their skim / vig off of every transaction.
In most cases, I'd guess over 75% or more, the Prime + Margin APR plus Annual Fee (if there is one) more than erases any rewards.
It's because the majority of the public is quite ignorant when it comes to financial matters, yet every man and his dog has an opinion about it. Banks exist to make money, and if individuals don't understand how the game is played... well then that's too bad for them.
People need to make the best decisions for themselves, and the banks are definitely not going to point out what those are to you. I frankly don't care about the "typical card holder" because they're not the one paying my bills. Over the past 13 years I've pushed about $1M in personal spending through my CCs, and I've also never paid a single dollar of interest.
Call it what you like, but it's possible to profit off of the system as it's currently setup. If other people can't do the same for whatever reasons, too bad. Everyone is free to make their own choices, including whether they use credit or not.
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