topic Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only. in Credit Card Applications

Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

TaperRandy — Wed, 16 May 2018 11:16:48 GMT

My QS has been stalled at $9000 for 17 months. Each time I go for the CLI, the screen issues the deflating "You request is being processed. You will be notified in 2-3 days of the outcome". Which of course in the real world is code for "Sorry pal, you ain't gettin' ding dong diddly". So, 2-3 days later I get the same single sentence bullet point explanation for the ritualistic decline: Account activity is currently under review by Capitol One at current limit." Mind you, this explanation is gibberish. It's nowhere to be found when digging deep into Cap1 help center and forums. Every month, when I have the time and patience, I listen to a new rep and "supervisor" echo banal script passages into my ear. When I ask what exactly does my decline reason actually mean in reality, not a single Cap1 rep can say with any certainty. So here's the kicker. I get a call escalated to a "supervising credit manager" 🙄. To her credit, she does take the time to explain that everything credit related is decided by an algorithm program. Cap1 has a business model predicated on having NO humans, no underwriters, and no analysts making any judgment calls or overrides on what a numbers program produces to the customer. They have abandoned completely the virtue of righting wrongs that automated programs cannot detect. They have in essence, removed the human element altogether. Except for phone center workers evidently, who are unable to assist with anything other than regurgitating what can be read on a website or policy disclaimers. So, ALL other CLI requests for me are granted -for all the expected and right reasons-but Cap1 has put a...well, cap on my QS for a still unknown reason. It's a hollow feeling to have people tell you absolutely nothing, month after month. I guess the moral to the story is, the world isn't always a better place with machines deciding for us, how our lives are to be governed. It's creepy actually to hear that there is no "Customer Service Department", no Recon, no true account review dept's at a financial institution. Food for thought.

p.s. One rep suggested that I use more of my credit line in order to show that I needed an increase. I did that one month (even though I knew it was a BS answer )and used 57% of it, paid it off and the next decline I was told, was because I utilized too much of my credit line last billing period! Lose/Lose

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 20:58:50 GMT

TaperRandy ... thank you for educating us on the fact machines have replaced humans. Will add that Citi has done essentially the same thing to me for four years until a CSR in the Tampa Bay FL office told me that CIti has risk models that will stop CLIs if your DTI, income and credit reports show more credit than they believe you can support (I was floored but glad to know - and they have not budgeted even the Citi EO could not over ride the system). As always, I suspect there are YMMV situations that allow those with brown on the end of their noses to get increases

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 13:03:50 GMT

@TaperRandyOne rep suggested that I use more of my credit line in order to show that I needed an increase. I did that one month (even though I knew it was a BS answer )and used 57% of it, paid it off and the next decline I was told, was because I utilized too much of my credit line last billing period! Lose/Lose

Capital One likes heavy usage and payments. What you did with the heavier spend followed by PIF is exactly what they (and most lenders) want to see. There's no such thing as using "too much of a credit line" so long as you are paying it off right away. THAT was the BS answer you were given, not that you should use more of your credit line, which I believe was 100% accurate and true information you were originally told. I think where you fell short here was that you only increased the usage for 1 cycle. Usually they'll want to see this for 2-3 cycles to show that you actually need the larger limit.

I understand your frustration, but it doesn't sound like you really need a bigger limit on this card if you increased your utilization to 57% of your limit. By definition that means you typically use less than that. How much is your typical monthly spend? If you're spending $1000-$2000 on average, say, there really isn't an incentive there for CO to increase the credit line. You have to see it from their perspective.

As far as CO going automated and taking the human element out of the equation, there were posts about that probably 2 years ago on this forum. Many said that it had become "impossible" to achieve a CLI through a manual review [by a human] but I did exactly that around a year ago. I would send a letter to the CEO, which will prompt a call back from the EO and plead your case to them. This would give you the best shot, but again if your usage isn't consistently strong you don't have much support for your argument that you should receive a CLI.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

TaperRandy — Wed, 16 May 2018 13:28:03 GMT

Articulate, and well thought out. I appreciate your insight. My retort is this: I wanted to use the QS more heavily as a supplement to all of my construction business needs. I told the rep that my financial needs for a credit line with regard to what I spend for stock, equipment, and materials in my business far exceeds the $9000 limit. I needed more so I could spend comfortably for a large order without worrying about the humiliation of a declined purchase. This however, is where the problem lies with automation. That is a manual review and human interaction/judgment scenario. It is non existent. There are no individuals available at Cap1 to hear you out. Unless of course, one does elect to write a letter, then perhaps results of some sort can be found.

I miss the good old days where people made decisions based on knowledge, experience, and real life judgment. People, helping people. It's an antiquated concept.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 14:04:30 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@TaperRandyOne rep suggested that I use more of my credit line in order to show that I needed an increase. I did that one month (even though I knew it was a BS answer )and used 57% of it, paid it off and the next decline I was told, was because I utilized too much of my credit line last billing period! Lose/Lose
Capital One likes heavy usage and payments. What you did with the heavier spend followed by PIF is exactly what they (and most lenders) want to see. There's no such thing as using "too much of a credit line" so long as you are paying it off right away. THAT was the BS answer you were given, not that you should use more of your credit line, which I believe was 100% accurate and true information you were originally told. I think where you fell short here was that you only increased the usage for 1 cycle. Usually they'll want to see this for 2-3 cycles to show that you actually need the larger limit.

I understand your frustration, but it doesn't sound like you really need a bigger limit on this card if you increased your utilization to 57% of your limit. By definition that means you typically use less than that. How much is your typical monthly spend? If you're spending $1000-$2000 on average, say, there really isn't an incentive there for CO to increase the credit line. You have to see it from their perspective.

As far as CO going automated and taking the human element out of the equation, there were posts about that probably 2 years ago on this forum. Many said that it had become "impossible" to achieve a CLI through a manual review [by a human] but I did exactly that around a year ago. I would send a letter to the CEO, which will prompt a call back from the EO and plead your case to them. This would give you the best shot, but again if your usage isn't consistently strong you don't have much support for your argument that you should receive a CLI.

Having 57 percent reporting balance actually hurts one's credit score. The OP left with an option either having decreased credit score with high Util. Balance or Use the Capitalone card more in hopes that one may or may not get a CLI. I agree with OP, it really lose/lose deal here. I would never let 57 percent of the balance on any card in hope of CLI. Capitalone should be able to grant CLI if you use the card at all in those billing cycles, dont matter how large the balance is. As for no-human/Automatic system, it becoming more and more common lenders use that system rather than a human manual review.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

MakingProgress — Wed, 16 May 2018 15:52:45 GMT

One fact to keep in mind is that when you call a company there is a very good chance that the CSR you are talking to does not work for that company but for a company that runs call centers. i.e I call Capital One ,but the phone is answered by someone who works for XYZ call center. XYZ has a contract with Capital One to provide "Customer Service" for thier products. The employee at XYZ may one day be taking calls for Capital One and the next they might be tech support for Verizion.

IMO companies that maintain thier own call centers provide better customer service than companies that farm it out.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 16:51:10 GMT

“ I miss the good old days where people made decisions based on knowledge, experience, and real life judgment. People, helping people. It's an antiquated concept.”

Welcome... to the the Machine. - Pink Floyd

It is bizarre and almost surreal that important decisions that effect our daily existence are now made by algorithms. Algorithms that are created complete with the inevitable human error built in. My credit union seems to be one of the last bastions of financial interaction with humans.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 18:49:36 GMT

@Anonymous
Having 57 percent reporting balance actually hurts one's credit score. The OP left with an option either having decreased credit score with high Util.

This isn't accurate. First, the OP didn't say that he reported 57% utilization on the card; He said he used 57% of the limit (and paid it off). These are two very different things. Heavy usage is what lenders like to see. This doesn't mean you have to report a high balance/high utilization and take a score hit.

One can spend a lot and/or bring their balance very high and still report a much lower relative utilization. Last month I actually had to make a second payment on one of my cards in order to make a final purchase before the statement period ended. I used about 110% of my limit that cycle, but due to a large payment I only reported 28% utilization on the card. I requested a CLI about 2 weeks later and received $7000. No doubt my heavy spend followed by PIF was a big reason why.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 18:52:17 GMT

@TaperRandyI told the rep that my financial needs for a credit line with regard to what I spend for stock, equipment, and materials in my business far exceeds the $9000 limit. I needed more so I could spend comfortably for a large order without worrying about the humiliation of a declined purchase. This however, is where the problem lies with automation. That is a manual review and human interaction/judgment scenario. It is non existent. There are no individuals available at Cap1 to hear you out. Unless of course, one does elect to write a letter, then perhaps results of some sort can be found..

From a front line CSR, I agree with you. Again, you're going to want to involve the EO here and in order to do that you should start by emailing or writing a letter to the CEO. Generally you'll get a call back from a human being with some authority within 2-3 business days. Whether or not they are willing to help you is questionable, but I can assure you that youre odds are greatly increased over a basic CSR.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

SouthJamaica — Wed, 16 May 2018 20:21:24 GMT

@TaperRandy wrote:
Articulate, and well thought out. I appreciate your insight. My retort is this: I wanted to use the QS more heavily as a supplement to all of my construction business needs. I told the rep that my financial needs for a credit line with regard to what I spend for stock, equipment, and materials in my business far exceeds the $9000 limit. I needed more so I could spend comfortably for a large order without worrying about the humiliation of a declined purchase. This however, is where the problem lies with automation. That is a manual review and human interaction/judgment scenario. It is non existent. There are no individuals available at Cap1 to hear you out. Unless of course, one does elect to write a letter, then perhaps results of some sort can be found.
I miss the good old days where people made decisions based on knowledge, experience, and real life judgment. People, helping people. It's an antiquated concept.

If you use your personal card for business purposes your account may be terminated by Capital One.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

TaperRandy — Wed, 16 May 2018 20:32:06 GMT

By what measure? An algorithm? I stated what I was purchasing, for explanatory purposes here. I'm fairly certain that my purchases aren't scrutinized on a specificity level. That is to say, an algorithm doesn't know a pile of 2x4s from Patriots season tickets. Thats what I'm goin' with anyway! 😉🙂

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Wed, 16 May 2018 20:56:20 GMT

@MakingProgress wrote:
One fact to keep in mind is that when you call a company there is a very good chance that the CSR you are talking to does not work for that company but for a company that runs call centers. i.e I call Capital One ,but the phone is answered by someone who works for XYZ call center. XYZ has a contract with Capital One to provide "Customer Service" for thier products. The employee at XYZ may one day be taking calls for Capital One and the next they might be tech support for Verizion.

IMO companies that maintain thier own call centers provide better customer service than companies that farm it out.

Very interesting ... that may be why sometimes it seems like the CSR does not know the product as they have many and don't necessariy know all about the specifics (always ticks me off when I know more than the CSR).

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

kshurika — Wed, 16 May 2018 21:43:51 GMT

SouthJamaica wrote:

"If you use your personal card for business purposes your account may be terminated by Capital One."

While it is not good to commingle funds, it is completely legal for a business owner to spend his own funds to buy capital for his own business and then be reimbursed by that business. If the IRS and a state's tax board have no problems with this, why should Capital One?

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

pipeguy — Thu, 17 May 2018 04:10:10 GMT

@kshurika wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:

"If you use your personal card for business purposes your account may be terminated by Capital One."

While it is not good to commingle funds, it is completely legal for a business owner to spend his own funds to buy capital for his own business and then be reimbursed by that business. If the IRS and a state's tax board have no problems with this, why should Capital One?

Although it is "legal" it may be against the terms of use by a lender and that too is legal. When I had my own business for 18 years I was the business and used personally issued cards for a lot of business spending - no one complained about be running hundreds of thousands through my cards. That being said, if I did it today I'd have several cards that I solely used for business and keep my personal cards separate.

Capital one issues "business cards" as do many other lenders (card issuers) and these cards tend to have higher limits based on need and usage and at times a financial statement or business tax return. I would suggest the op looks into opening one or two business cards such as Spark or Ink for general spend, business travel cards are a whole different situation.

There is also a greater risk for both the lender and the cardholder to finance the ongoing operation of a business using credit cards - not only high-interest costs if you need to carry a balance, but personal ruin if things go south for the business - been there it's not fun.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

TaperRandy — Thu, 17 May 2018 11:01:56 GMT

All valid points and appreciated. Non applicable in my case however. I pay my balances for my business down immediately. I have credit lines with suppliers that don't even offer credit lines, my reputation can boast. They will drop materials and send me a bill, wait for me to call with a card. To the point of business going south, impossible unless I become addicted or incompacitated. My region, brand, and trade demand don't allow for that option, thanks be to God. Lastly, Cap1 pulls TU. Can't have another inq on my TU. 15/24 currently. My point? I get the Business Card thing. I have two as it is. It's just not an option. Thank you for the reply though.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Sat, 19 May 2018 02:48:20 GMT

Your signature says you have the capital one platinum with a higher limit. Any possibility of combining that into the QS? I’m new to the credit game so excuse me if this question is stupid.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

TaperRandy — Sat, 19 May 2018 10:24:30 GMT

Yes, the option is available if I have my Platinum at zero balance, and take a hit on my oldest account age.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

SOGGIE — Sun, 20 May 2018 01:46:19 GMT

@TaperRandy So here's the kicker. I get a call escalated to a "supervising credit manager" 🙄. To her credit, she does take the time to explain that everything credit related is decided by an algorithm program. Cap1 has a business model predicated on having NO humans, no underwriters, and no analysts making any judgment calls or overrides on what a numbers program produces to the customer.

Say it isn't so.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

Anonymous — Sun, 20 May 2018 02:02:59 GMT

@TaperRandyYes, the option is available if I have my Platinum at zero balance, and take a hit on my oldest account age.

Combining limits, closing accounts, etc. has no bearing at all on your AoOA.

Re: Cap1-NO human customer service. Algorithms only.

TaperRandy — Sun, 20 May 2018 10:47:47 GMT

So, closing your oldest account (In this case, the aforementioned Cap Plat I had used as an example to the OP) has NO bearing on your AoOA! Well, you've reinvented the credit universe as we've all come to understand it. Congrats. Looking forward to the global FICO announcement.

p.s. You do understand that when combining two accounts that one of them no longer is an account, hence...it becomes, a closed account?? Yeah, you knew that.