topic Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons in Credit Card Applications

NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:38:11 GMT

Quick backstory. I'm rebuilding. In April of 2018, I had a 512 TU Fico8. Applied and was approved for a $500 Cash rewards with a 515 EQ (yes, the pulls we're backwards for me, EQ for card, TU for CLOC). I was extremely aggressive in adding to my portfolio of credit last year as I started with only 3 cards. I ended up adding 6 cards and 3 loans. I haven't been able to get any growth with NFCU despite my fico8 and 9 both growing over 100 points in 9 months. I recently got an offer for the More Rewards and pulled the trigger because it was almost a year. Was instantly denied and received my letter today with the reasons.

- Number of inquiries (14. I was aggressive, and bought a car. I could explain down to 8)

- Average credit limit of open credit cards reported last 12 months (not sure what this is, maybe my limits aren't growing fast enough for my rebuild?)

- ratio open revolving balances to credit limits reported last 12 months (utilization went up for about 3 1/2 months for Christmas)

- months since a bank card balance exceeded it's credit limit (I accidentally forgot to pay a card down before interest hit, took me over limit for less than $5 for 1 day

It appears that my history with them didn't mean anything, as almost none of that applied to any Navy products. In addition, it shows that they are 100% trending data, something that has always been speculated with other lenders. Navy has just admitted in my denial letter. Pretty disappointing as overall, my profile has improved significantly in less than a year. I was already gardening, but I'm glad I took the chance because I feel like I got some real answers from a lender for once. I will be calling for a more thorough explanation when I have time. Things I'll be asking about would be the 2nd reason and timelines, such as time from exceeding a credit limit.

Let me know if you have questions.

Edit to add some data points:

- $70k income

- own $650k home outright

- DTI is around 17%

- UTI is about 48%

- scores are all mid-600

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

simplynoir — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:37:36 GMT

Reason #2 seems oddly worded but best I can guess is that the credit limits other banks are giving you that were opened in the last 12 months are being taken into consideration which I think is kind of weird. I say this because usually NFCU's MO is to take what you've done already with them first and foremost before taking outside factors into the equation.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

thornback — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:40:26 GMT

Wow... I'm sorry for your denial but that is honestly the best denial letter i've ever seen... and I guess it could make getting denied a bit easier to deal with when the lender actually provides solid reasoning.

That last one: months since a bank card balance exceeded it's credit limit - is very, very interesting and, I agree, confirms their use of trending data.

And this one is intersting too -- Average credit limit of open credit cards reported last 12 months -- I doubt it means that your limits aren't high enough to show you have experience with higher limits since we see many rebuilders with starter limits getting massive SLs with Navy; so that leaves your interpretation - that your limits aren't growing fast enough with current lenders -- which I guress signfies what? that your current lenders aren't ready to reward you yet so no soup for you? Wierd.

And yes, it does seem as though it's not all about building a history with Navy afterall.. I would love to hear about any more info you get out of them if / when you call. Thanks for sharing this and again -- sorry about the denial.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:41:33 GMT

@simplynoir wrote:
Reason #2 seems oddly worded but best I can guess is that the credit limits other banks are giving you that were opened in the last 12 months are being taken into consideration which I think is kind of weird. I say this because usually NFCU's MO is to take what you've done already with them first and foremost before taking outside factors into the equation.

Hence why I found the reasons interesting. I was very careful with my navy accounts to give me a better shot at the larger second card and/or cloc. This tells me that the relationship may not be as important as what people think.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:44:10 GMT

@thornback thanks. Once I got past the whole denial part, it was oddly satisfying. I feel like I can build a plan of attack and can set a realistic timeline for change. Much less frustrating than the random reasons from Cap1 and Disco.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:50:13 GMT

So what % of of usage ate you letting report?

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

simplynoir — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:54:05 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@simplynoir wrote:
Reason #2 seems oddly worded but best I can guess is that the credit limits other banks are giving you that were opened in the last 12 months are being taken into consideration which I think is kind of weird. I say this because usually NFCU's MO is to take what you've done already with them first and foremost before taking outside factors into the equation.
Hence why I found the reasons interesting. I was very careful with my navy accounts to give me a better shot at the larger second card and/or cloc. This tells me that the relationship may not be as important as what people think.

I still think the relationship aspect is important or at least more important than other banks give it credence to like Chase for instance. I will be really interested to hear what lending/app department has to officially say regarding that denial reason. The way it's worded it can go several different ways.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 04:58:43 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
So what % of of usage ate you letting report?

I typically wouldn't let any of my accounts report more than 25% at any time. Until recently, almost all of my cards reported at 0. But, since I am not actively seeking credit, I haven't been using AZEO or micromanaging them. I can be at AZEO in less than 30 days if I wanted, but currently am carrying balances as I need the cash elsewhere at the moment.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:02:05 GMT

@simplynoir wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@simplynoir wrote:
Reason #2 seems oddly worded but best I can guess is that the credit limits other banks are giving you that were opened in the last 12 months are being taken into consideration which I think is kind of weird. I say this because usually NFCU's MO is to take what you've done already with them first and foremost before taking outside factors into the equation.
Hence why I found the reasons interesting. I was very careful with my navy accounts to give me a better shot at the larger second card and/or cloc. This tells me that the relationship may not be as important as what people think.
I still think the relationship aspect is important or at least more important than other banks give it credence to like Chase for instance. I will be really interested to hear what lending/app department has to officially say regarding that denial reason. The way it's worded it can go several different ways.

No doubt. I wholly believe relationship plays a part in Navy's decisions. I just think the amount may not be as large as other people think. We would need a lot of data from recent approvals. Specifically trended data over a 12 month period leading to the monster approvals.

Chase on the other hand, doesn't care about a relationship.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

simplynoir — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:07:00 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@simplynoir wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@simplynoir wrote:
Reason #2 seems oddly worded but best I can guess is that the credit limits other banks are giving you that were opened in the last 12 months are being taken into consideration which I think is kind of weird. I say this because usually NFCU's MO is to take what you've done already with them first and foremost before taking outside factors into the equation.
Hence why I found the reasons interesting. I was very careful with my navy accounts to give me a better shot at the larger second card and/or cloc. This tells me that the relationship may not be as important as what people think.
I still think the relationship aspect is important or at least more important than other banks give it credence to like Chase for instance. I will be really interested to hear what lending/app department has to officially say regarding that denial reason. The way it's worded it can go several different ways.
No doubt. I wholly believe relationship plays a part in Navy's decisions. I just think the amount may not be as large as other people think. We would need a lot of data from recent approvals. Specifically trended data over a 12 month period leading to the monster approvals.

Chase on the other hand, doesn't care about a relationship.

It may just be a shift in their policy. I remember when Penfed was raining limits from the sky like CapOne was a couple of years ago before it suddenly stopped. A poster was nice enough to type up their experiences talking to the lending department to find out PF's lending decisions/criteria had dramatically changed so this may be the case here. A lot of lenders are recently tightening up so wouldn't be surprised if it was just NFCU keeping ahead of the ecnomic trends we're seeing right now.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:10:46 GMT

Those are some incredibly specific reasons.

I wish they were all like this.

It looks like Navy isn’t really comfortable being the only lender to loosen the purse strings for your right now. Seems kind of odd since they’re known to be everyone’s huge limit card.

Sorry for the denial but thanks for sharing. Also had me go look up trended data use in credit cards and I stumbled on this from Experian

https://www.experian.com/blogs/insights/2016/06/what-is-trended-data/

So at least Experian is already offering solutions to lenders around trended data and has been since 2016.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:39:42 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Those are some incredibly specific reasons.

I wish they were all like this.

It looks like Navy isn’t really comfortable being the only lender to loosen the purse strings for your right now. Seems kind of odd since they’re known to be everyone’s huge limit card.

Sorry for the denial but thanks for sharing. Also had me go look up trended data use in credit cards and I stumbled on this from Experian

https://www.experian.com/blogs/insights/2016/06/what-is-trended-data/

So at least Experian is already offering solutions to lenders around trended data and has been since 2016.

It should be assumed that all banks keep trending data in regards to their accounts. This is just the first time I've seen a lender cite trended data from other lender's accounts.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:52:04 GMT

Yeah I never imagined that lenders don’t use their own trended data but it definitely is interesting to see NFCU admit that they use trended data for other accounts.

I am still pretty shocked that they gave you a denial after a year of having their card though. Maybe they really are going to start tightening up.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Cred4All — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:04:03 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

https://www.experian.com/blogs/insights/2016/06/what-is-trended-data/

So at least Experian is already offering solutions to lenders around trended data and has been since 2016.

Great link, I've never taken all of that into consideration but it does make sense. A current 'snapshot' or 'score' is just a superficial introduction into the applicant, having all of that history for 2 years does show a good behavioral analysis of the persons ability to navigate through what's in his/her profile. So with Navy being the largest CU in the US, do they have the ability to analyze all of that data? If they're using reasoning codes, perhaps.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:39:21 GMT

@Cred4All wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:

https://www.experian.com/blogs/insights/2016/06/what-is-trended-data/

So at least Experian is already offering solutions to lenders around trended data and has been since 2016.
Great link, I've never taken all of that into consideration but it does make sense. A current 'snapshot' or 'score' is just a superficial introduction into the applicant, having all of that history for 2 years does show a good behavioral analysis of the persons ability to navigate through what's in his/her profile. So with Navy being the largest CU in the US, do they have the ability to analyze all of that data? If they're using reasoning codes, perhaps.

Thanks for mentioning that. On my CLOC denial they do, in fact, use reasoning codes and it was a different type of denial letter than I've ever received from them previously. Even different type of paper.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

AverageJoesCredit — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:50:31 GMT

Sorry B. Looks like Instead of Navy handing out 25k limits people will have to make do with 20 instead

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:36:07 GMT

Thanks for posting your dp's. Are you going to call for a manual review? I've actually opened the cc app page and filled it out a few times but never followed through (I hate rejection). NFCU sure did provide a lot of information here.

Please keep us posted.

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

UncleB — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 15:20:19 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
It should be assumed that all banks keep trending data in regards to their accounts. This is just the first time I've seen a lender cite trended data from other lender's accounts.

Well rats.

I'm sorry to see that things didn't work out, but I agree that you have some really good data points and it's interesting that they seem to be keeping track of trended data. Like you say, now you can come up with a "plan of attack".

One thing I'll mention is that possibly with a lower total utilization the factors they mention might not have come into play at all; that's just my speculation, of course. We all know how NFCU loves low utilization and DTI (sorry, can't bring myself to use "UTI"... LOL).

I know (from experience) that with more modest credit lines that lower utilization can be a pain to work with, since you would have to shift your routine on how/when you use your cards to make it happen, so it's understandable that your utilization appears higher than it otherwise would be.

Don't give up, though... you know all-too-well how NFCU can be, and the wait can really be worth it!

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 15:51:25 GMT

@UncleB here's my thing, if they're trending 12 months worth of data, they should be expecting a surge in utilization during the holidays .that's a 3rd of the year right there. So, because they're trending 12 months, do I need to keep everything below 30% for a full 12 months before they show some love? Is it calendar year? Rolling 12 months?

Seriously disappointed, because the data here says if I had opened a secured card instead of cash rewards, my $500 limit would have quadrupled in less than a year. Are there rules saying they have to graduate to $2000? Would graduation taken longer if utilization was high?

Re: NFCU Denial and Interesting Reasons

UncleB — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 15:55:43 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@UncleB here's my thing, if they're trending 12 months worth of data, they should be expecting a surge in utilization during the holidays .that's a 3rd of the year right there. So, because they're trending 12 months, do I need to keep everything below 30% for a full 12 months before they show some love? Is it calendar year? Rolling 12 months?

Seriously disappointed, because the data here says if I had opened a secured card instead of cash rewards, my $500 limit would have quadrupled in less than a year. Are there rules saying they have to graduate to $2000? Would graduation taken longer if utilization was high?

Excellent thoughts and questions all... I wish I had the answers.

I would hope that any impact trending data might have would only come into play as a tie-breaker, of sort. In other words, if everything else were "in check" that a balance from months ago on a different card really wouldn't matter, otherwise you're right in that it raises even more questions.