topic Re: Deceptive Practices in Personal Finance

Deceptive Practices

difringe — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:11:41 GMT

Got an e-mail from PNC telling me that I'm pre-selected for a personal loan offer, so I navigated there to check out their rates for craps and giggles (I'm in the garden until March 2023, so the offer would have to be exceptional for me to take it, but I was willing to check).

After informing them of my zip code, I got to a page where I could view rates

Looking at the above, you'd think the rate ranges for the loan as listed, right? For ex: for a $35k loan with a 3yr repayment period, the rates would range from 5.99% to 9.34%. Not bad, all things considered.

WRONG

You've gotta click the 'Important Disclosures' link to see the real rates

5.99% to 25.49%?! Why not just put that on the freaking rates table instead of hiding it? If they wanted to advertise the lowest rate, just say something like 'Rates as low as 5.99%!' and have your footnote with the full range of rates. Just really irritating that these places do stuff like this.

Re: Deceptive Practices

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:21:44 GMT

Sorry, I'm not seeing what's deceptive. You got a pre-selected offer based on the information they have and they showed your offers. Once you apply and they HP, they'll be able to gauge your credit worthiness more accurately. If it's in line with what they have, you get a solid apr within the offer range. The disclosure is simply saying if your credit worthiness is worse than they believed, it could be as high as 25.49%, if they even give you an offer at all.

Most lenders only SP once a month. A lot can change in a month. There's nothing deceptive going on here.

Re: Deceptive Practices

difringe — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:46:26 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
Sorry, I'm not seeing what's deceptive. You got a pre-selected offer based on the information they have and they showed your offers. Once you apply and they HP, they'll be able to gauge your credit worthiness more accurately. If it's in line with what they have, you get a solid apr within the offer range. The disclosure is simply saying if your credit worthiness is worse than they believed, it could be as high as 25.49%, if they even give you an offer at all.

Most lenders only SP once a month. A lot can change in a month. There's nothing deceptive going on here.

I didn't provide any information to check my actual offer (so I don't know what range they're offering to me specifically), it'd be fine if I app'd and got an offer with an APR between 5.99% and 25.49% or didn't get an offer at all. The screenshots are from their website, for anyone who visited the site to see.

What's deceptive is having a table that you use to 'Get Rates,' said table stating the rates range from 5.99% to 9.34%, but then having a small link elsewhere that details the ACTUAL rate range of 5.99% to 25.49%. Just put the 5.99% to 25.49% in the actual table. If you don't see hiding the actual rate range (while putting a table out there stating the rate range) as deceptive, then OK, we're just different people.

Re: Deceptive Practices

Anonymous — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:58:31 GMT

@difringe It seems sort of like the commercials on TV for prescription medications. They make the product they're selling look as attractive as possible. But then towards the end of the commercial it shows a huge paragraph in tiny letters that someone reads very fast. I think they're trying to adhere to the law while selling you something, and hoping you won't read through the fine print.

Re: Deceptive Practices

difringe — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 18:37:55 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@difringe It seems sort of like the commercials on TV for prescription medications. They make the product they're selling look as attractive as possible. But then towards the end of the commercial it shows a huge paragraph in tiny letters that someone reads very fast. I think they're trying to adhere to the law while selling you something, and hoping you won't read through the fine print.

I think the thing that's really getting me is they put a freaking range on there. It's very easy to just say 'Rates as low as 5.99%!' and that makes it look very attractive. What's the point of putting a janky range up there?

Re: Deceptive Practices

iced — Wed, 20 Jul 2022 20:34:17 GMT

@difringe wrote:
I think the thing that's really getting me is they put a freaking range on there. It's very easy to just say 'Rates as low as 5.99%!' and that makes it look very attractive. What's the point of putting a janky range up there?

How is this any different than what automakers do in their commercials? You can get a lease for a new <insert crap SUV here> for as low as $299/month, with a tiny asterisk that indicates that's only for 'well-qualified' buyers (translation: flawless record and won't sign unless we give them those terms).

It feels deceptive the first 5 times someone runs into it, but it eventually becomes something one becomes de-sensitized to.

Re: Deceptive Practices

difringe — Thu, 21 Jul 2022 03:31:01 GMT

@iced wrote:
@difringe wrote:
I think the thing that's really getting me is they put a freaking range on there. It's very easy to just say 'Rates as low as 5.99%!' and that makes it look very attractive. What's the point of putting a janky range up there?
How is this any different than what automakers do in their commercials? You can get a lease for a new <insert crap SUV here> for as low as $299/month, with a tiny asterisk that indicates that's only for 'well-qualified' buyers (translation: flawless record and won't sign unless we give them those terms).

It feels deceptive the first 5 times someone runs into it, but it eventually becomes something one becomes de-sensitized to.

again, i literally said that that (saying rates as low as 5.99%) would be very easy (and i'm implying that that would be what i would have expected to see), what's irritating is they put a bs range up there, which i HAVEN'T seen '5 times' to use your phrasing

Re: Deceptive Practices

FinStar — Thu, 21 Jul 2022 05:41:58 GMT

While it's understandable that you may seem annoyed, there's clearly no deception going on.

Just because you are not seeing it the way you expect to see it displayed on their chart, it doesn't translate into a deceptive practice as you claim. If you had applied and received a different rate than the one shown or quoted on the main page and the full rate disclosure or link wasn't present, then yes, that would be grounds for such a claim. Also, just because it's not inherently displayed on the main page or chart, it doesn't mean they're "hiding" it.

The above information is compliant with regulatory disclosure standards with regard to how a financial institution can publish the best product rates available (or a given range) for qualified, targeted or prospective applicants. They also provide and important disclosure link for consumers to be informed on what the full APR or spread consists of.

Re: Deceptive Practices

difringe — Thu, 21 Jul 2022 18:08:32 GMT

@FinStar wrote:
While it's understandable that you may seem annoyed, there's clearly no deception going on.

Just because you are not seeing it the way you expect to see it displayed on their chart, it doesn't translate into a deceptive practice as you claim. If you had applied and received a different rate than the one shown or quoted on the main page and the full rate disclosure or link wasn't present, then yes, that would be grounds for such a claim. Also, just because it's not inherently displayed on the main page or chart, it doesn't mean they're "hiding" it.

The above information is compliant with regulatory disclosure standards with regard to how a financial institution can publish the best product rates available (or a given range) for qualified, targeted or prospective applicants. They also provide and important disclosure link for consumers to be informed on what the full APR or spread consists of.

yes, we know they followed the law LOL, that's why they aren't in court over it. i didn't state 'PNC is breaking the law!' it's just silly and serves no purpose other than causing ppl to overvalue the product they're offering, etc.

it's 'deceptive' because its purpose is to not immediately provide you with the pertinent information to make your choice. in fact, it's to fool you into thinking that you have said information! you're provided with the 'Important Disclosures' link so they can't be taken to court over it. if i go to nfcu's personal loan page, they provide the entire range, which is what we should require of all of these financial institutions.

there should be as few hoops as possible to acquiring the information you need to choose, but that's not what these ppl are worried about, which is annoying.

Re: Deceptive Practices

iced — Thu, 21 Jul 2022 19:09:14 GMT

@difringe wrote:
yes, we know they followed the law LOL, that's why they aren't in court over it. i didn't state 'PNC is breaking the law!' it's just silly and serves no purpose other than causing ppl to overvalue the product they're offering, etc.

it's 'deceptive' because its purpose is to not immediately provide you with the pertinent information to make your choice. in fact, it's to fool you into thinking that you have said information! you're provided with the 'Important Disclosures' link so they can't be taken to court over it. if i go to nfcu's personal loan page, they provide the entire range, which is what we should require of all of these financial institutions.

there should be as few hoops as possible to acquiring the information you need to choose, but that's not what these ppl are worried about, which is annoying.

Serving no purpose except to overvalue something is the whole point and purpose of marketing. For many of us it's no longer annoying or deceptive because we're used to it and we expect it. Most successful businesses are successful precisely because they are artists of legally-acceptable exploitation.

Re: Deceptive Practices

Guyatthebeach — Sat, 23 Jul 2022 01:05:22 GMT

Difringe,

To be honest with you, I don't see any deceptive with this. It looks like a typical preselected offer. I take these preselected with a grain of salt. There is a huge difference between a preselected offer and an actually approved loan. A few years back when I was car shopping for a new commuter car, I had an pre-approved offer from PNC for 3.99% on the website. When they ran my credit for the loan app, it came back 1.99%, that's a big difference in my book.

I get what you're saying, but I just don't put a lot of time into these offers.

Guyatthebeach

Re: Deceptive Practices

GatorGuy — Sat, 23 Jul 2022 20:38:04 GMT

@difringe I agree with you. Why put a range of the real top is 2.5x higher?

As you said, all they have to do is only quote the lower number. As it is, I would classify that as deceptive.

Re: Deceptive Practices

difringe — Sat, 23 Jul 2022 21:18:25 GMT

@GatorGuy wrote:
@difringe I agree with you. Why put a range of the real top is 2.5x higher?

As you said, all they have to do is only quote the lower number. As it is, I would classify that as deceptive.

i don't understand how ppl are reading this thread and not getting the point that i was making, but glad to see that you completely get it!

it's literally that simple, i don't even know what my apr would be because i didn't apply (pnc sends pre-qualified offers, but doesn't offer a soft pull pre-approval to my knowledge), but that's literally not the point that i was making

Re: Deceptive Practices

iced — Sat, 23 Jul 2022 23:10:38 GMT

@difringe wrote:

i don't understand how ppl are reading this thread and not getting the point that i was making, but glad to see that you completely get it!

Again, most people got it; they just aren't irritated by it. Incorrect ranges, missing ranges, outright lies on marketing material -- shrug. Life's too short to waste emotional capital on marketing drivel.

If asked, I don't trust (or care about) the range in the fine print, either. If I want a real value for APR, I'll just have to apply and find out.

Re: Deceptive Practices

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 15:13:26 GMT

I agree with OP. Either go with the suggestion "rates as low as 5.99%" or put the range given but add the label "for well-qualified..." which is a meaningless term but at least would indicate that you MAY not get that range.

OPs irritation is simply because when you see a range (without any constraints) you might naturally assume that that is the complete range possible (except for say penalty APRs) and this is not the case here.

I also get that others aren't that moved, "ads are deceptive, yes, we know!"