topic Re: Chase Sapphire Banking in Personal Finance

Chase Sapphire Banking

Revelate — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 20:05:44 GMT

I looked for a thread but couldn't find it; but has anyone done any looking into this product that was announced a week ago by Chase?

https://accounts.chase.com/sapphire/brand

Admittedly deposit rates still are pretty lackluster, but I stumbled across this on their You Invest free trade announcement and the CPC-like benefits look enticing if I can just leave a self-directed brokerage or retirement account there to meet the $75k... would not be difficult and I wouldn't be opposed to just transfering over one of my Fidelity accounts.

Really the only knock I had on CPC was the fact it was a managed service and I'm a little opposed to those on general principal, but when we are talking 100 free trades and even then 2.95/trade after that, well I'm not really actively trading much at the moment but realistically I'd probably save $300/year or thereabouts just by moving my Fidelity accounts entirely.

Anyway wanted to see if anyone else had looked at it, I may go down and talk to someone at one of the CPC branches just to see what they say for giggles over a late lunch or whatever.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Lurker22 — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 20:54:01 GMT

I have CPC and while my IRA is a managed account I also have a “You Invest” account that qualifies for free trades as a result of being CPC, so I’m assuming if I want to move my IRA to a non-managed “You Invest” account I’m able to

PS - managed JP Morgan account fees are negotiable, your advisor is able to reduce them to a point (mine are well below the published rates)

PPS - with CPC you’re assigned both a Chase Private Client Banker and a JP Morgan Private Client Investment Advisor...I personally don’t use my banker for much but I do talk to my JP Morgan Advisor every so often

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Revelate — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 22:26:04 GMT

That's an interesting bit of information Lurker, thank you.

I don't think I'm going to get to be able to talk to them today, well maybe, late lunch and there's a branch nearby there... but between the fact that my trades get non-trivially cheaper, and I can move money back and forth between my Chase checking account which my paycheck runs through and my investment account and apparently Intra-bank is way faster to transfer and settle than any experience I've had with Fidelity... I'm not certain it makes any rational sense to keep anything at Fidelity at this point.

I'd qualify CPC if I moved everything over after the absurd runup I had this year in my brokerage account (31% YOY like what the actual F) and to your point maybe I should talk to them too about that if I'm moving the bulk of my financial assets to Chase and just compare and contrast.

Yeah think I will go have the conversation today after lunch.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Lurker22 — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 22:49:57 GMT

Intrabank transfers are optional not not automatically setup (which seems silly) but yes transfer is same day when enabled

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Revelate — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 01:01:03 GMT

@Lurker22 wrote:
Intrabank transfers are optional not not automatically setup (which seems silly) but yes transfer is same day when enabled

Yeah, I did go to talk to the CPC individual at one of the local Chase branches today; he actually took a note when I told him that it basically funded and settled day of for my transfer from a Chase checking account. That is an obvious selling point to me anyway, and apparently to him too. I don't know when exactly it went through, but I do know it was settled 27 minutes before market close... and my transfer to Fidelity would barely have even begun by that point and normal ACH timers.

Turns out I should've been looking at this from the other direction: Sapphire Banking like CPC gets free trades on You Invest period apparently: falls into the "or more" portion of "100 free trades or more" apparently.

In talking to the banker they were trying to go two fold: capture some folks like me, and also keep some people in the fold after selling their house and transferring their 300k capital gains or whatever into a Vanguard account with their cost structure. Also looks like they're taking a swipe at Schwab's most excellent debit card services too, which to date if you travelled internationally it was the only way to fly and basically dupicated the no fee and no exchange fee structure. Good call on that one Chase!

What wasn't known was on the loan side, I'd read something online but it wasn't known in bank (actually I was the first person to talk to him about it) if it was like CPC or not vis a vis CPC can get rate discounts and also has their own set of mortgage underwriting for example (and I have nothing but good things to say about Chase's handling of my own non-CPC mortgage back in 2015 anyway).

Some limitations on the You Invest side: their fixed income is a bit lame. Minor detail you can't do fixed income on the mobile app which is a first world problem to be sure, but more to the point, you can't search by corporate name in any shape, form, or fashion or by CUISP, and everything is IG: no chasing high returns here unlike Schwab or Fidelity. Also derivative trading appears to be a non-starter.

So basically for me, I'd take the brokerage account where I do really nothing but equity trades (I'd lose some option capability but that's not the end of the world for me), and leave the main IRA with Fidelity where I can do junk bonds and some other option trading.

I'm not seeing much reason not to do it frankly: I save some money in transaction costs, and I can more easily shuffle money around between my non-retirement brokerage account and the rest of my life. As is I don't see any reason to ever initiate an ACH going to Fidelity again with that Intra-Bank transfer capability enabled, and that's if I don't move the current brokerage account and maybe my wayward Roth IRA out of Wealthfront.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 11:17:24 GMT

Those who stash $75,000 in a checking account aren't managing their money correctly (yes, I know, sounds wrong).

To get even CU rates on $75,000 is a major loss to inflation every year. Better off just stashing everything but a few grand in an investment account to get a 3% or higher return on your money.

I like what Chase is doing here. The account has barely any fees, even four waived overdraft fees per year, but does have the minimum requirement. Some people may be better off paying the $25/month if they frequently write checks, conduct frequent wire transfers, overdraft a few times a year, etc.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

iced — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 12:09:56 GMT

@Revelate wrote:
I looked for a thread but couldn't find it; but has anyone done any looking into this product that was announced a week ago by Chase?

https://accounts.chase.com/sapphire/brand

Admittedly deposit rates still are pretty lackluster, but I stumbled across this on their You Invest free trade announcement and the CPC-like benefits look enticing if I can just leave a self-directed brokerage or retirement account there to meet the $75k... would not be difficult and I wouldn't be opposed to just transfering over one of my Fidelity accounts.

Really the only knock I had on CPC was the fact it was a managed service and I'm a little opposed to those on general principal, but when we are talking 100 free trades and even then 2.95/trade after that, well I'm not really actively trading much at the moment but realistically I'd probably save $300/year or thereabouts just by moving my Fidelity accounts entirely.

Anyway wanted to see if anyone else had looked at it, I may go down and talk to someone at one of the CPC branches just to see what they say for giggles over a late lunch or whatever.

I just took a quick look at it, but I'm coming away with the feeling it's not really offering anything that's not already out there. People with sufficient funds in some brokerages get all trading fees waived, even when the account is managed (investments in managed funds will still have their usual maintenance fees, of course). The angle here I could see is it's good for people who have at least $75k but not enough to get into the tier of brokerages where things get comped. I also feel like most people have very little activity in their brokerages once seeded - maybe 2-3 trades a year. For those people, waiving trading fees still sounds really awesome but the actual value realized from it is pretty minimal.

ATM reimbursements are offered at some CUs and banks, even with no/low minimums on deposit.

The way to think about this is not if the program has valuable benefits, but rather if the program has valuable benefits you'll actually make use of and would add up to sufficient value to initiate a transfer to that bank. Where I see garbage, someone else may well see treasure.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Lurker22 — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 14:09:47 GMT

@Revelate wrote:
@Lurker22 wrote:
Intrabank transfers are optional not not automatically setup (which seems silly) but yes transfer is same day when enabled
Yeah, I did go to talk to the CPC individual at one of the local Chase branches today; he actually took a note when I told him that it basically funded and settled day of for my transfer from a Chase checking account. That is an obvious selling point to me anyway, and apparently to him too. I don't know when exactly it went through, but I do know it was settled 27 minutes before market close... and my transfer to Fidelity would barely have even begun by that point and normal ACH timers.

Turns out I should've been looking at this from the other direction: Sapphire Banking like CPC gets free trades on You Invest period apparently: falls into the "or more" portion of "100 free trades or more" apparently.

In talking to the banker they were trying to go two fold: capture some folks like me, and also keep some people in the fold after selling their house and transferring their 300k capital gains or whatever into a Vanguard account with their cost structure. Also looks like they're taking a swipe at Schwab's most excellent debit card services too, which to date if you travelled internationally it was the only way to fly and basically dupicated the no fee and no exchange fee structure. Good call on that one Chase!

What wasn't known was on the loan side, I'd read something online but it wasn't known in bank (actually I was the first person to talk to him about it) if it was like CPC or not vis a vis CPC can get rate discounts and also has their own set of mortgage underwriting for example (and I have nothing but good things to say about Chase's handling of my own non-CPC mortgage back in 2015 anyway).

Some limitations on the You Invest side: their fixed income is a bit lame. Minor detail you can't do fixed income on the mobile app which is a first world problem to be sure, but more to the point, you can't search by corporate name in any shape, form, or fashion or by CUISP, and everything is IG: no chasing high returns here unlike Schwab or Fidelity. Also derivative trading appears to be a non-starter.

So basically for me, I'd take the brokerage account where I do really nothing but equity trades (I'd lose some option capability but that's not the end of the world for me), and leave the main IRA with Fidelity where I can do junk bonds and some other option trading.

I'm not seeing much reason not to do it frankly: I save some money in transaction costs, and I can more easily shuffle money around between my non-retirement brokerage account and the rest of my life. As is I don't see any reason to ever initiate an ACH going to Fidelity again with that Intra-Bank transfer capability enabled, and that's if I don't move the current brokerage account and maybe my wayward Roth IRA out of Wealthfront.

Yep not a bad product overall but I don't know why they haven't gotten anyone attention before the free trades (other than that's a huge new field) the only addition to the CPC program is the free trades, all of the other benefits have been there for years (oh they did make 1 ATM change, ATM fee rebates used to be limited to 5/month, they're unlimited now)....

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Lurker22 — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 14:15:48 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Those who stash $75,000 in a checking account aren't managing their money correctly (yes, I know, sounds wrong).

To get even CU rates on $75,000 is a major loss to inflation every year. Better off just stashing everything but a few grand in an investment account to get a 3% or higher return on your money.

I like what Chase is doing here. The account has barely any fees, even four waived overdraft fees per year, but does have the minimum requirement. Some people may be better off paying the $25/month if they frequently write checks, conduct frequent wire transfers, overdraft a few times a year, etc.

Personally I agree with you but there might be a reason someone would have $75K in a checking account....but remember you don't need to have $75K (or $250K for CPC) on deposit in a checking account, you only need to have assets at these levels within the JP Morgan Chase & Co family, in my case my IRA at JP Morgan puts me into the CPC program for free (I have 3 checking accounts at JP Morgan Chase Bank, 2 have been under $100 for months now and the 3rd is the main one I use, with floats it could be a decent amount until my mortgage and other bills clear but no where near those limits)

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:35:03 GMT

@Lurker22 wrote:
@Revelate wrote:
@Lurker22 wrote:
Intrabank transfers are optional not not automatically setup (which seems silly) but yes transfer is same day when enabled
Yeah, I did go to talk to the CPC individual at one of the local Chase branches today; he actually took a note when I told him that it basically funded and settled day of for my transfer from a Chase checking account. That is an obvious selling point to me anyway, and apparently to him too. I don't know when exactly it went through, but I do know it was settled 27 minutes before market close... and my transfer to Fidelity would barely have even begun by that point and normal ACH timers.

Turns out I should've been looking at this from the other direction: Sapphire Banking like CPC gets free trades on You Invest period apparently: falls into the "or more" portion of "100 free trades or more" apparently.

In talking to the banker they were trying to go two fold: capture some folks like me, and also keep some people in the fold after selling their house and transferring their 300k capital gains or whatever into a Vanguard account with their cost structure. Also looks like they're taking a swipe at Schwab's most excellent debit card services too, which to date if you travelled internationally it was the only way to fly and basically dupicated the no fee and no exchange fee structure. Good call on that one Chase!

What wasn't known was on the loan side, I'd read something online but it wasn't known in bank (actually I was the first person to talk to him about it) if it was like CPC or not vis a vis CPC can get rate discounts and also has their own set of mortgage underwriting for example (and I have nothing but good things to say about Chase's handling of my own non-CPC mortgage back in 2015 anyway).

Some limitations on the You Invest side: their fixed income is a bit lame. Minor detail you can't do fixed income on the mobile app which is a first world problem to be sure, but more to the point, you can't search by corporate name in any shape, form, or fashion or by CUISP, and everything is IG: no chasing high returns here unlike Schwab or Fidelity. Also derivative trading appears to be a non-starter.

So basically for me, I'd take the brokerage account where I do really nothing but equity trades (I'd lose some option capability but that's not the end of the world for me), and leave the main IRA with Fidelity where I can do junk bonds and some other option trading.

I'm not seeing much reason not to do it frankly: I save some money in transaction costs, and I can more easily shuffle money around between my non-retirement brokerage account and the rest of my life. As is I don't see any reason to ever initiate an ACH going to Fidelity again with that Intra-Bank transfer capability enabled, and that's if I don't move the current brokerage account and maybe my wayward Roth IRA out of Wealthfront.
Yep not a bad product overall but I don't know why they haven't gotten anyone attention before the free trades (other than that's a huge new field) the only addition to the CPC program is the free trades, all of the other benefits have been there for years (oh they did make 1 ATM change, ATM fee rebates used to be limited to 5/month, they're unlimited now)....

They're trying to compete with Schwab by offering unlimited rebates and $2.95 a trade (except when you get free trades).

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Revelate — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 18:58:27 GMT

So maybe I just never asked previously or didn't understand the market, but what levels of assets on file with a brokerage house (Schwab or Fidelity) do you get your trade fees zeroed or even reduced non-trivially?

I know where I'm at, and I'm pretty sure you iced and a few others are well ahead of me financially... 75k or even 250k is doable for Chase's side, but it's going to be a while before I get to 1m or more.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Sep 2018 15:05:54 GMT

I think the point of this account is based on investment amounts and then being rewarded with a checking account with no fees, etc. Lots of banks offer different levels of checking depending on how much money overall you have at a bank. On its own, Sapphire checking is nothing to write home about, clearly, Chase is looking at the bigger picture and trying to be your only bank. Word on the street says that there are going to be UR points involved as well. This will entail having a checking account, a chase UR credit card and an investment account. Reward bonus's for mortgages and other loans as well.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

iced — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 13:47:31 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I think the point of this account is based on investment amounts and then being rewarded with a checking account with no fees, etc. Lots of banks offer different levels of checking depending on how much money overall you have at a bank. On its own, Sapphire checking is nothing to right home about, clearly, Chase is looking at the bigger picture and trying to be your only bank. Word on the street says that there are going to be UR points involved as well. This will entail having a checking account, a chase UR credit card and an investment account. Reward bonus's for mortgages and other loans as well.

Chase has already been playing the UR game for mortgages for a while now. Last year they were throwing 100k URs at anyone who got a mortgage through them.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 13:52:48 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I think the point of this account is based on investment amounts and then being rewarded with a checking account with no fees, etc. Lots of banks offer different levels of checking depending on how much money overall you have at a bank. On its own, Sapphire checking is nothing to right home about, clearly, Chase is looking at the bigger picture and trying to be your only bank. Word on the street says that there are going to be UR points involved as well. This will entail having a checking account, a chase UR credit card and an investment account. Reward bonus's for mortgages and other loans as well.

Agreed. I think going forward almost every bank will start enhancing benefits for your "relationship" with them.

The credit card competition has already matured. Now it's time to focus on actual banking accounts and investments. The more money you hold within your bank accounts, the more money the banks can invest; thus, you're earning them higher profits.

I think some banks and credit unions fall far behind in the "relationship rewards" aspect and have an enormous amount of room to make their "packages" more attractive to members/customers. And then you have banks like Key who have rewards programs that give you points for bill payments, opening new accounts, using your debit card, using your credit card, automatic payments, etc... But the problem is the $40 annual fee and the points are next to worthless when counted individually.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 14:37:57 GMT

Absolutely. Chase has always had relationship rewards tiers. I recall having a large amount on deposit (back when the savings rate was 6% in 2006...) and a mortgage and I was in some decent checking account. With You Invest I think they are going to try to get all of a persons banking needs met. Not sure how or if it will work since other brokerages are going to do the same in response. We shall see.

That said, looking at Sapphire Banking as a stand alone checking product is not really the way to look at it... it only is feasible when linked to other banking products - which is the point.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 15:00:26 GMT

I am with Vanguard and they have free ETF trades for all now since August 2018. Their tiers are as follows:

1. <50K = $7 for first 25 Stock trades - $20 after

2. 50K-500K = $7 per stock trade, access to fee based portfolio management

3. $500K- 1M = $2 per stock trade, access to financial advisor, fee based portfolio management, VanguardAdvantage Cash Acct.
4. Over $1M = $0 for first 25 stock trades, $2 after, access to financial advisor, fee based portfolio management, VanguardAdvantage Cash Acct., Trust services

So you see a 75K minimum at Chase give you more than a Vangard customer with 500K.

I might open a You Trade account to do stock trades, because no minimum at 100free than $2.95/trade is pretty good, and if my acct gets over $75K then hell why not open a Sapphire checking acct at that point, after which all trades will be FREE.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:28:47 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I am with Vanguard and they have free ETF trades for all now since August 2018. Their tiers are as follows:

1. <50K = $7 for first 25 Stock trades - $20 after
2. 50K-500K = $7 per stock trade, access to fee based portfolio management
3. $500K- 1M = $2 per stock trade, access to financial advisor, fee based portfolio management, VanguardAdvantage Cash Acct.
4. Over $1M = $0 for first 25 stock trades, $2 after, access to financial advisor, fee based portfolio management, VanguardAdvantage Cash Acct., Trust services

So you see a 75K minimum at Chase give you more than a Vangard customer with 500K.

I might open a You Trade account to do stock trades, because no minimum at 100free than $2.95/trade is pretty good, and if my acct gets over $75K then hell why not open a Sapphire checking acct at that point, after which all trades will be FREE.

I think Chase should offer an annual bonus of UR's (every 365 days) for having at least $75,000 in assets with them. I'm sure 25,000 UR points would be sufficient.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

iced — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 17:04:39 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous
I think Chase should offer an annual bonus of UR's (every 365 days) for having at least $75,000 in assets with them. I'm sure 25,000 UR points would be sufficient.

I don't see this being very likely to happen.

The people I know with $100k to $1 million in brokerages would go for something like this but they're not profitable enough to warrant throwing in much of anything that actually costs the bank money. I can see freebies like no ATM fees and reduced trade pricing, but I just don't see Chase lobbing UR at these clients (which will cost Chase actual money, unlike ATM/trading benefits) when they generate so little revenue.

The people I know with more than $1 million in brokerages don't care about toy throw-ins like 25k UR or CPC benefits - they value a dependable and trustworthy financial advisor.

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 18:15:58 GMT

@iced wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous
I think Chase should offer an annual bonus of UR's (every 365 days) for having at least $75,000 in assets with them. I'm sure 25,000 UR points would be sufficient.
I don't see this being very likely to happen.

The people I know with $100k to $1 million in brokerages would go for something like this but they're not profitable enough to warrant throwing in much of anything that actually costs the bank money. I can see freebies like no ATM fees and reduced trade pricing, but I just don't see Chase lobbing UR at these clients (which will cost Chase actual money, unlike ATM/trading benefits) when they generate so little revenue.

The people I know with more than $1 million in brokerages don't care about toy throw-ins like 25k UR or CPC benefits - they value a dependable and trustworthy financial advisor.

Those people are obviously profitable if banks have special checking accounts for them.

I'm sure Chase wouldn't waive overdraft, wire transfers, checks, and other fees if they weren't making more off of large asset customers than regular customers like you and I. Sapphire isn't aimed at people with $9,000,000 or more in their accounts... That's why they have JP Morgan Private Client accounts. 25,000 UR points costs Chase $250 a year (they pay bulk rates for airline miles and such).

Re: Chase Sapphire Banking

iced — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 19:24:37 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@iced
Those people are obviously profitable if banks have special checking accounts for them.

I'm sure Chase wouldn't waive overdraft, wire transfers, checks, and other fees if they weren't making more off of large asset customers than regular customers like you and I. Sapphire isn't aimed at people with $9,000,000 or more in their accounts... That's why they have JP Morgan Private Client accounts. 25,000 UR points costs Chase $250 a year (they pay bulk rates for airline miles and such).

Overdraft, wire transfer, checking, and ATM fees cost Chase nothing, just as a $200 change fee at United costs them nothing. In both cases, they know they can charge a fee for doing something that has an actual cost of $0 because the market will bear it, and it has the added bonus of being perceived as some value-add when they waive it for special members.

There's enough reciprocal agreements in place among the banking world that the cost to do inter-banking is effectively nothing for a bank like Chase. A $3 ATM fee is passed on to the customer when not waived, and when waived, it's likely that the other bank isn't charging Chase because they know there's a similar number of their clients using Chase ATMs. The banks scratch each other's backs to defray the cost there. To do the airline analogy again, when United books me on a Delta flight, it's unlikely they're forking over actual money to do it because they know there's a Delta passenger being booked on United somewhere at about the same time.

With URs, they might be able to defray a bit of it with airline partners like UA, but if you're cashing it out for 1.5 cpp on their portal or redeeming for statement credit/etc, that's cash out of their coffers.

Given how sensitive Chase is to churners, I'll go out on a limb and say they've done their homework and know there's enough people who would take the 25k URs and free trades then do nothing else whatsoever to generate any fees and just slowly suck cash out of them that they're asking for losses by doing something like this.