topic Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien? in Bankruptcy

Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Anonymous — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:44:32 GMT

so i'm awaiting disharge for Ch 7 and i have everyone included that i need however there is a debt which stems from maybe 25 years ago that my lawyer is having trouble reaching. He is saying i need to call the courthouse and get a copy of the book and page of when lien was reported. All i have are copies showing Asset Acceptance, Assignee of first select bank vs Assignee etc...i figured just sending the paperwork to them would be fine but i guess not. I also remember it being a part of something called Parnell and Associates. I"m wondering if i can contact one of these places directly and ask who i owe. And then use that for my lawyer to send the info to include in BK.. would be crushed if this came back to garnish me or something in the future considering the idea of a BK is a fresh start.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:55:04 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
so i'm awaiting disharge for Ch 7 and i have everyone included that i need however there is a debt which stems from maybe 25 years ago that my lawyer is having trouble reaching. He is saying i need to call the courthouse and get a copy of the book and page of when lien was reported. All i have are copies showing Asset Acceptance, Assignee of first select bank vs Assignee etc...i figured just sending the paperwork to them would be fine but i guess not. I also remember it being a part of something called Parnell and Associates. I"m wondering if i can contact one of these places directly and ask who i owe. And then use that for my lawyer to send the info to include in BK.. would be crushed if this came back to garnish me or something in the future considering the idea of a BK is a fresh start.

It likely differs by County, but in my County the courthouse has records in books such as leins an deeds, and it is searchable if you go there. You can search by Name, Address, etc. Once the last title transfer is found, it will indicate the lein holder, and the lein documents is in another book and page often indicated on the title transfer. It is also searchable by date. Spent a long time there when searching the complete history of some of my families land all the way back to a land grant under an English King. The sales documents should inicate the book and page for the title transfer on the loan document though.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Anonymous — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:56:36 GMT

ok. this is sort of foreign to me and it sounds like things related to an auto.. does your example also apply in my situation which is of a credit card?

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:00:59 GMT

There is even likely an online search tool for the records now, because this was before the internet became widely used.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:33:01 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
ok. this is sort of foreign to me and it sounds like things related to an auto.. does your example also apply in my situation which is of a credit card?

25 year old credit card debt would be way beyond the SOL for that type of debt everywhere I know of.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Anonymous — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:13:33 GMT

i would think so but they still send me letters with an amount owed and a threat to garnish wages. get one maybe once every 1 or 2 years.. i'm guess i should try the probate judge office to see if they have anything

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Mizqtpye — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:20:58 GMT

Like Sarge said, it's usually by county...but should be a pretty painless process to locate. I'm assuming this is a judgment for the cc debt that was attached as a lien on real property? If so, the part of the court you're looking for is usually called the "recorders" office. Most are also digital these days. Do a google search for your county's recorders office and see if they have online searching and search for the address. Where I'm at we also have a digital "Lien Index" that is statewide so you can probably look for something like that online too. Just make sure you're on a .org or .gov website.

If those fail (I'm assuming your atty woulda tried those already...but never know)...call the recorders office and tell them what your searching for, they should be able to help. The book and page for liens are common terms for them so they'll know what you're talking about. You may end up having to go to the court, but try online then phone first. If you go, the clerk should be able to guide you.

While 25 year cc debt is pretty old, you have to know your states laws with regards to judgment liens and how long they last. Where I'm at, a judgment lien is enforceable for 7 years but can be renewed every 7 years to keep it enforceable. There's lots of other nuances so best to work with your BK atty to know your exposure for sure.

BK Courts usually need to know when and where the lien is recorded in the official records...which is why your atty is asking for the "book and page" where the lien is recorded.

Best of luck!

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:46:33 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
i would think so but they still send me letters with an amount owed and a threat to garnish wages. get one maybe once every 1 or 2 years.. i'm guess i should try the probate judge office to see if they have anything

That does not necessarily mean they can, old loan paper is bought for pennies on the dollar by some very unscrupulous characters. The can, will, and do make threats on loans that are not in fact enforceable by law. Often these threats are not worth the paper they are written on either. It is hard for me to believe a creditor waited 25 years to take action unless it is actually unenforceable. The SOL does not mean collection agencies can't continue trying to collect a debt, they just can't recieve help from the Government to do it. When the SOL is reached garnishment, judgements and such are not available. If a lien existed, the property the lein is secured by can be taken, and bankruptcy does not cancel leins. In any case the lender must provide proof of the debt. It is true that some debts secured by real property can be renewed in some States, but wage garnishment is usually only allowed by the IRS, or a court judgement. I seriously doubt the lender just was patient for 25 years. It is much more likely some collection agency bought some old loan paper for little or nothing. They can send you all kind of threatening letters, but can't follow through with the threats. It does give me pause that your attorney seems to be concerned about it though.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Anonymous — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:54:45 GMT

Some great information from you both.. going to continue checking into it as soon as I get home today.. I really don't get to speak to my attorney just his assistant and she just happened to ask for my help in finding the info.. I should also add that even though the original debt is about 25 years old.. the Judgment papers would be about 15 years old as far as when I was served the paperwork

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:16:26 GMT

Collection agencies that buy very old debts operate much like scam artist do. They buy thousands of old debts for very, very little and buy a stamp every few years to send threatening letters. If just one in a hundred is scared into paying, they make a profit...sort of like throwing a hundred darts at a dart board hoping one sticks. That is also why individuals with a foreign accent claim to be sending the Sheriff to arrest you if you don't buy a gift card to pay your IRS debt. It only differs in the respect that the collection agency is not usually breaking laws to issue empty threats. The fake IRS folks are breaking many laws to take advantage of often elderly citizens, but since they are in other Countries they can't be brought to justice. There are things debt collectors can do that are illegal, but empty threats of garnishments that can't be obtained is not one of them. In my opinion, most likely this debt is just one of hundreds of darts being thrown at a dart board, hoping 1 will hit a target.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:32:59 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Some great information from you both.. going to continue checking into it as soon as I get home today.. I really don't get to speak to my attorney just his assistant and she just happened to ask for my help in finding the info.. I should also add that even though the original debt is about 25 years old.. the Judgment papers would be about 15 years old as far as when I was served the paperwork

If a judgement was obtained, the judgement would have been issued by a court, on a specific date. All the papers used to obtain the judgement should be in the judgement papers. Court records are public records and you should be able to obtain the records from that court. Is the lein on your house? If so, it could be an issue when you try to sell the house. I have never heard of a credit card issuer being able to obtain such a lein though. It is usually the IRS or a Contractors lein for unpaid work done on the house that results in such a lein.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:42:26 GMT

no, it's not on a house. ive never owned a home. the latest judgment paper i have says the judgement was renewed in 2016.. so i guess as long as they can renew, legally they could act. my dad seems to think if i do get the info it may open a can of worms. and that i should just ignore it. But i'm thinking most if not all judgements are wiped out if included in BK.. though i could be wrong there

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

jmw1 — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:09:03 GMT

The lien could screw with your ability to get a mortgage or sell real estate even though the lien is no good after bankruptcy because the lender or buyer is scared by the lien's existence. You will have to pay extra to the lawyer to have the lien avoidance recorded in bankruptcy if you choose to get rid of it even though you don't own a home today.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:03:49 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
no, it's not on a house. ive never owned a home. the latest judgment paper i have says the judgement was renewed in 2016.. so i guess as long as they can renew, legally they could act. my dad seems to think if i do get the info it may open a can of worms. and that i should just ignore it. But i'm thinking most if not all judgements are wiped out if included in BK.. though i could be wrong there

This is somewhat confusing, as a judgement and a lein are not the same thing. A judgement obtained in a court can be enforced by asset seizure or garnishment in some cases. A lein however is placed against real property such as a house, land, or automobile. If I am not mistaken most judgements can be discharged in bankruptcy if not involving criminal acts, fraud, IRS debt, or negligence. A lein is placed against property when receiving a motgage, car loan, or can be placed on personal property due to a judgement.

A lein in most cases can not be discharged, only the debt can. When you declare bankruptcy, the auto or mortgage debt can be discharged, but the lenders lein is still valid, so the lender can foreclose or repossess the property. Since you say you do not own a home, I doubt that an actual lein exists. If that is the case, obtain a copy of the judgement from the court where it was filed. If you were served, and failed to show up in court, the court will award the judgement in absentia. It is somewhat rare, I think, for the court to grant a judgement for unsecured credit card debt if the debtor shows in court. That is partially why credit card interest rates are so high, because the debt is not secured by assets like a house or car.

A judgement will usually create a lein against a house or land, if you own a house or land when the judgement is awarded. If you did not own a house or land, there was not any real property to place a lein against. A lein can not be discharged, but a bankruptcy filing will void a judgement if the underlying debt that resulted in the judgement is dischargeable. IRS and student loan debt is not dischargable. In some States, to keep land or a car after the debt is discharged will require a re-affirmation agreement. In other States, just continuing to pay the car loan, or mortgage is allowed. The lender can still exersize the lein if not re-affirmed, but most wont since doing so usually results in a loss. It is almost always in the best interest of the debtor to not sign a re-affirmation agreement if not required by law. If you continue to make payments on a car for instance, if not re-affirmed but kept the car, the engine can blow up later, and you can surrender the car without further damage to your credit.

The reason for this is because the debt obligation was discharged in bankruptcy. If not re-affirmed, there is no longer a legal debt owed on the car, and your payments are just preventing the lender from taking the property with the lein. They can exersize the lein at any time, even if payments continue, and take the car, but like I say, they usually wont.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

mich800 — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:54:30 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
i would think so but they still send me letters with an amount owed and a threat to garnish wages. get one maybe once every 1 or 2 years.. i'm guess i should try the probate judge office to see if they have anything

They have a lein? And if so on what asset? If it is a credit card debt why would anything be filed with the county?

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

mich800 — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:59:57 GMT

@sarge12 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
no, it's not on a house. ive never owned a home. the latest judgment paper i have says the judgement was renewed in 2016.. so i guess as long as they can renew, legally they could act. my dad seems to think if i do get the info it may open a can of worms. and that i should just ignore it. But i'm thinking most if not all judgements are wiped out if included in BK.. though i could be wrong there
This is somewhat confusing, as a judgement and a lein are not the same thing. A judgement obtained in a court can be enforced by asset seizure or garnishment in some cases. A lein however is placed against real property such as a house, land, or automobile. If I am not mistaken most judgements can be discharged in bankruptcy if not involving criminal acts, fraud, IRS debt, or negligence. A lein is placed against property when receiving a motgage, car loan, or can be placed on personal property due to a judgement.

A lein in most cases can not be discharged, only the debt can. When you declare bankruptcy, the auto or mortgage debt can be discharged, but the lenders lein is still valid, so the lender can foreclose or repossess the property. Since you say you do not own a home, I doubt that an actual lein exists. If that is the case, obtain a copy of the judgement from the court where it was filed. If you were served, and failed to show up in court, the court will award the judgement in absentia. It is somewhat rare, I think, for the court to grant a judgement for unsecured credit card debt if the debtor shows in court. That is partially why credit card interest rates are so high, because the debt is not secured by assets like a house or car.

A judgement will usually create a lein against a house or land, if you own a house or land when the judgement is awarded. If you did not own a house or land, there was not any real property to place a lein against. A lein can not be discharged, but a bankruptcy filing will void a judgement if the underlying debt that resulted in the judgement is dischargeable. IRS and student loan debt is not dischargable. In some States, to keep land or a car after the debt is discharged will require a re-affirmation agreement. In other States, just continuing to pay the car loan, or mortgage is allowed. The lender can still exersize the lein if not re-affirmed, but most wont since doing so usually results in a loss. It is almost always in the best interest of the debtor to not sign a re-affirmation agreement if not required by law. If you continue to make payments on a car for instance, if not re-affirmed but kept the car, the engine can blow up later, and you can surrender the car without further damage to your credit.

The reason for this is because the debt obligation was discharged in bankruptcy. If not re-affirmed, there is no longer a legal debt owed on the car, and your payments are just preventing the lender from taking the property with the lein. They can exersize the lein at any time, even if payments continue, and take the car, but like I say, they usually wont.

That is what was confusing me. A judgement is only as good as the ability for the creditior to perfect on that by attaching to an asset to either compel the debtor to pay or foreclose/sieze and asset for payment. A judgment is just a piece of paper codifying you owe someone something.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

sarge12 — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 06:47:13 GMT

@mich800 Not exactly, a lien obtained in a judgement can usually not force foreclosure or sale of the property. It just means when you ever do sell the property, the lien will have to be satisfied to get a clear title. The judgement if still in force can result in a lien against a future house or land as well. The valid judgement is all the proof needed for a lien on future real property....land or home. If the debt is dischargable, and credit card debt is almost always dischargable unless fraud is proven, the judgement would be discharged as well. Then, liens on future property could not be obtained. It differs from a voluntary lien in a mortgage which can force foreclosure if not paid. You voluntarily agreed to the mortgage lien when you signed the loan agreement. In an involuntarily lien, the debtor never agreed to put the house or land as security for the debt. When ever the land is to be sold, the involuntary lien must be satisfied or vacated, which it would be if the debt was dischargable and there was a bankruptcy filed later.

@mich800 said::

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

mich800 — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 13:31:21 GMT

@sarge12 wrote:
@mich800 Not exactly, a lien obtained in a judgement can usually not force foreclosure or sale of the property. It just means when you ever do sell the property, the lien will have to be satisfied to get a clear title. The judgement if still in force can result in a lien against a future house or land as well. The valid judgement is all the proof needed for a lien on future real property....land or home. If the debt is dischargable, and credit card debt is almost always dischargable unless fraud is proven, the judgement would be discharged as well. Then, liens on future property could not be obtained. It differs from a voluntary lien in a mortgage which can force foreclosure if not paid. You voluntarily agreed to the mortgage lien when you signed the loan agreement. In an involuntarily lien, the debtor never agreed to put the house or land as security for the debt. When ever the land is to be sold, the involuntary lien must be satisfied or vacated, which it would be if the debt was dischargable and there was a bankruptcy filed later.

@mich800 said::
That is what was confusing me. A judgement is only as good as the ability for the creditior to perfect on that by attaching to an asset to either compel the debtor to pay or foreclose/sieze and asset for payment. A judgment is just a piece of paper codifying you owe someone something.

Is there not some posting/notification that attorneys can perform that satifies the notification requirments in a BK for any unknown creditors similar to when one dies? And if this is reporting on thier credit report, the attorney must have found out about it somewhere. The contact info in the report should be sufficient for notification correct?

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

jmw1 — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 17:11:49 GMT

@mich800 wrote:
Is there not some posting/notification that attorneys can perform that satifies the notification requirments in a BK for any unknown creditors similar to when one dies? And if this is reporting on thier credit report, the attorney must have found out about it somewhere. The contact info in the report should be sufficient for notification correct?

Under normal circumstances, the lawyer looks up the creditor's registered address for service of process from the secretary of state's database. I think there are also other databases where the lawyer can look up the preferred bankruptcy postal address or email for many lenders and collection agencies.

Contacting the judgment creditor is good, but that doesn't take care of the lien at all. It may haunt the OP sometime in the future.

Re: Anyone know anything about book and page of lien?

Anonymous — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 04:35:07 GMT

did you check here https://www.mdcourts.gov/legalhelp/landrecords

or you can check libroslara.com if have somthin similar