topic Re: Amex kept me after BK in Bankruptcy

Amex kept me after BK

_leo_ — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 05:07:43 GMT

Attorney said i was crazy, amex will close it. I said no they wont. My BK finalized on 5.27.24, it was really hard but due to unforseen circumstances i had to file. Kept paying my amex which i had since 2006 (plat card) i had attorney skip sending them a letter. I called them and spoke to a supervisor, just asked questions and he said as long as i do not include them I was fine i also searched high and low and on reddit I found several people who had success. So BK is all done and card is still open and active and I used it the entire time. Crazy.. Just checked my credit score 788, card is great and no limit..

Moral of the story, dont listen to your attorney, tell them do not send a letter to amex and make sure the card is paid in full, if you dont pay anything else, just pay amex and they will keep it open (CROSS YOUR FINGERS)

Should i wait a while before applying to anything else? I burned capital one for about 15k, is it foolish to think they would approve me?

Re: Amex kept me after BK

NJCasper — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:13:57 GMT

Well that's interesting and encouraging to hear. I wonder if it's because the plat card is a charge card vs a credit card? And if they keep everything open when they do their next credit review - I think annually? That's amazing the score is so high after a bankruptcy - I thought that would be the nuke of the credit world!

Re: Amex kept me after BK

pizzadude — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:39:14 GMT

Congrats on keeping this account open, hopefully AMEX won't shut you down.

I don't believe it's possible that your FICO score could be 788 with a one month old BK. Where did you pull your scores?

Re: Amex kept me after BK

NoMoreE46 — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 17:24:22 GMT

So did you continue to use and pay your Amex platinum during the BK process?

CapOne is the most forgiving of the issuers. Who else got burned?

Re: Amex kept me after BK

CreditCuriosity — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 17:36:16 GMT

Suprised as sounds like favoring one creditor which is a no-no although just a charge card and paid in full. Also the AF think would make other creditors scratch their heads getting the short end of the stick imho.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

_leo_ — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 21:49:00 GMT

Its actually both, It was pay in full for me but also it allows to pay over time. I was using it and paying it in full. I have never had a balance on it.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

_leo_ — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 21:50:38 GMT

Pulled them from Amex credit monitoring (all 3) and from Chase app, my chase cc accounts are gone but i am still able to login and use the free credit service that came with, not sure how long that will last for though.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

_leo_ — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 21:52:52 GMT

I was paying it in full, i actually was using it and paying the bill in full before it posted so im not sure if it was reporting as even being used and if it was it would show a very low balance probably almost zero i was catching it before the bill closed. But, it still stayed open and its currently open now and using it and still paying in full every month

Re: Amex kept me after BK

_leo_ — Tue, 18 Jun 2024 22:02:15 GMT

I did in full before the bill would come out and still used it. I checked on the cap1 preapproval page and it said i didnt qualify. Mission said i was preapproved when i checked but i am waiting since Amex is still working and i have no limit. They still show reporting on all 3.

Discover closed my account even though I had no balance and we didnt send them a letter so they still shut it down. Wonder if i can get another?

burned: Barclays, Chase, cap1, sync (lowes,jcp,paypal) citi (costco, AA) costco still kept me as a member sent me a letter saying keep paying the membership.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

NoMoreE46 — Wed, 19 Jun 2024 17:31:14 GMT

Do know there is something called a Revocation of Discharge. This is when the BK is nullified.

Any creditor or the TTEE can request this adversarial process if they suspect the Debtor has withheld material infomation regarding the debt on the schedule that was attested as accurate. {It doesn't matter if the DEBT (on the Amex Plat) was incurred and paid before any statement had cut or had reported.} If anything, doing this would probably be construed as a willful omission and the Revocation of the Discharge granted.

As noted, showing favoritism to One issuer, in this case Amex- is a No. I am surprised the BK atty went along with this plan unless the BK atty had the OP sign a waiver of some kind...

There is a statute for Revocation. It is one year.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

GreatLife — Wed, 19 Jun 2024 17:02:14 GMT

Moral of the story, dont listen to someone telling you dont listen to your attorney!

Re: Amex kept me after BK

_leo_ — Thu, 20 Jun 2024 05:25:57 GMT

You thought I was up to no good, but I wasn't. I used my Amex card to buy essential things like rent, groceries, and bills, sticking to my bankruptcy rules. I paid for these items with my Amex and then settled the card using my own money, not any hidden funds. I wasn't concealing anything or breaking the law. I saw it as a way to keep the card active without mentioning my bankruptcy. If I intended to pay off a debt or if the card had no balance, there was no need to report it. My explanations were unclear. Adhering to the bankruptcy guidelines allows you to retain your Amex card during bankruptcy as long as your account has a zero balance.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

despritfreya — Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:11:04 GMT

@_leo_ wrote:
Adhering to the bankruptcy guidelines allows you to retain your Amex card during bankruptcy as long as your account has a zero balance.

I find this entire thread to be quite interesting.

1. You should always listen to your attny. If you are uncomfortable with the advice, you get a second (or third) opinion. Failure to follow the advice leaves one open to the consequences down the road if that advice was material and your failure to follow it has negative repercussions.

2. If the account balance on a credit card (AmEx or otherwise) is $0.00 on the day you file, the CC does not get listed as there is no debt owed.

3. If there is an account balance (no matter how small) on the day the case is filed, the CC is listed.

4. You sign the bankruptcy schedules under penalty of perjury and, if you knowingly fail to disclose, you have broken the law.

5. If AmEx, to date, has not taken your privilege to use its card away, kudos to you. That does not mean it won't close the account sometime in the future. Nor does it mean that it will close the account. Use of its card is a privilege, not a right, and can be taken away.

Des

Re: Amex kept me after BK

CaptainConcorde — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 17:11:39 GMT

I wish I had known that seven months ago. I had a Platinum, Delta Gold and Hilton Aspire. I travelled and used them all quite a bit. They were all $0 balance when I filed. I would've loved to stay with them. I know at 61 months I'll be applying again.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

Lurker22 — Tue, 02 Jul 2024 13:44:34 GMT

@CaptainConcorde wrote:
I wish I had known that seven months ago. I had a Platinum, Delta Gold and Hilton Aspire. I travelled and used them all quite a bit. They were all $0 balance when I filed. I would've loved to stay with them. I know at 61 months I'll be applying again.

I think the OP got lucky - I had a corporate card issued by my employer that AmEx closed upon discovering my 13, card was paid in full by my employer monthly, my attorney questioned AmEx and their attorney stated it was AmEx's belief they needed to legally close the account (my employer just requested a new account for me so I was good but it was a PIA until I received the new card)

Re: Amex kept me after BK

IsambardPrince — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 08:47:09 GMT

@_leo_ wrote:

Attorney said i was crazy, amex will close it. I said no they wont. My BK finalized on 5.27.24, it was really hard but due to unforseen circumstances i had to file. Kept paying my amex which i had since 2006 (plat card) i had attorney skip sending them a letter. I called them and spoke to a supervisor, just asked questions and he said as long as i do not include them I was fine i also searched high and low and on reddit I found several people who had success. So BK is all done and card is still open and active and I used it the entire time. Crazy.. Just checked my credit score 788, card is great and no limit..

Moral of the story, dont listen to your attorney, tell them do not send a letter to amex and make sure the card is paid in full, if you dont pay anything else, just pay amex and they will keep it open (CROSS YOUR FINGERS)

Should i wait a while before applying to anything else? I burned capital one for about 15k, is it foolish to think they would approve me?

That's actually against the bankruptcy law. You cannot show one creditor preferential treatment, and really the Trustee should have noticed that you paid AmEx and not anyone else and clawed it back.

I probably wouldn't go around talking about this if it was me and they somehow overlooked it. All your credit cards are supposed to be closed and you can't pay one creditor and not the rest.

"Moral of the story, dont listen to your attorney."

Your attorney was advising you on the legal thing to do, which is what I presume you paid them to do. They have a requirement to give you their best legal advice and representation and they can't encourage you to break the law. So they did their job here.

"tell them do not send a letter to amex"

It's not your attorney that sends them a letter, it's the Bankruptcy Noticing Center. By not putting them on the creditor matrix or reporting the payments in the lead up to the bankruptcy, that's called, well, bankruptcy fraud.

Your attorney actually had an ethical duty as an officer of the court to drop you as a client when you told him to leave American Express off the creditor matrix.

Attorneys are officers of the court, which means they have ethical obligations beyond just representing their clients. These duties include upholding the law, maintaining honesty and integrity in their dealings, and ensuring fair administration of justice. When handling bankruptcy cases, attorneys must adhere to bankruptcy laws and regulations, including accurately disclosing all creditors and assets. Failure to fulfill these responsibilities can lead to serious consequences, including sanctions or disbarment.

If you wanted to voluntarily pay AmEx after the discharge, that would have been legal, but you can't simply not list a creditor. Like, I had to burn the debt to my doctor, but then I voluntarily paid my doctor after the discharge (like I told him I would after the discharge was through) because it was a small debt and I wanted to keep going there.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

IsambardPrince — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 08:52:30 GMT

@despritfreya wrote:
@_leo_ wrote:
Adhering to the bankruptcy guidelines allows you to retain your Amex card during bankruptcy as long as your account has a zero balance.

I find this entire thread to be quite interesting.

1. You should always listen to your attny. If you are uncomfortable with the advice, you get a second (or third) opinion. Failure to follow the advice leaves one open to the consequences down the road if that advice was material and your failure to follow it has negative repercussions.

2. If the account balance on a credit card (AmEx or otherwise) is $0.00 on the day you file, the CC does not get listed as there is no debt owed.

3. If there is an account balance (no matter how small) on the day the case is filed, the CC is listed.

4. You sign the bankruptcy schedules under penalty of perjury and, if you knowingly fail to disclose, you have broken the law.

5. If AmEx, to date, has not taken your privilege to use its card away, kudos to you. That does not mean it won't close the account sometime in the future. Nor does it mean that it will close the account. Use of its card is a privilege, not a right, and can be taken away.

Des

It's not just on the filing date. The Trustee asks if you have made any payments to your creditors recently. So by saying you didn't (and this is a standard question) you would also be perjuring yourself, in addition to bankruptcy fraud for not listing a creditor you owed money to recently on the schedule.

Also, the statute of limitations on all of this (as with most non-capital offenses on the federal books) is 5 years after the date of the crime), so if you lied on your schedule, that's 5 years from the time you filed that, then the 341 meeting is a month or so later, so if you perjure yourself, 5 years after that, and if you hid anything, then 5 years for that after the discharge date.

So then say someone notices and called a special examination later and they ask you if you failed to include any creditors (like AmEx), and you said "no", that's another perjury. You're not out of the woods on this stuff until 5 years after it happened assuming no tolling was in effect (like you went outside the US and that time didn't count, or you were in hiding).

Re: Amex kept me after BK

despritfreya — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:22:03 GMT

@IsambardPrince wrote: It's not just on the filing date. The Trustee asks if you have made any payments to your creditors recently. So by saying you didn't (and this is a standard question) you would also be perjuring yourself, in addition to bankruptcy fraud for not listing a creditor you owed money to recently on the schedule. . .

You are talking about potential preferences. A “547” claim is entirely different from listing an unsecured creditor on Schedule F and the MML.

If, on the Petition date, nothing is owed, then the credit card need not be listed on Schedule F or the MML.

In a consumer case, payments to a creditor that amount to $600 or more, paid within the 90 days prior to filing, are listed on the SOFA (having nothing to do with what a trustee does or does not ask). It is then up to the Trustee (if a Chapter 7) to decide to recover the $. Note: if this is a non-consumer case, the threshold goes from $600 to $5,757.00 in the 90 day window.

Everyone, just to be clear, paying a creditor prior to filing is not “fraud”. Outside of bk law, there is no issue. Inside bk law, maybe it is a preference based upon the type of case (consumer/non-consumer), status of creditor (non-insider/insider) and when payments were made (90 days/1 year). Preferences are recoverable by a Chapter 7 Trustee. 547 actions happen every day. Institutional creditors like AmEx simply pay the money or settle with the Trustee for something less. To such a creditor it is simply a cost of doing business.

Bottom line - If a debtor fails to properly disclose their financial information as required, and that failure was done "knowingly" / "intentionally" there is an issue since the right to get a discharge is based upon "disclosure, disclosure, disclosure". People who don't properly disclose and get caught tend to show up at my office. It is up to my office to do damage control in an effort to correct the record and lessen the possibility of criminal charges. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes we aren't. It all depends upon how serious the failures were. As to the criminality, we have represented several who were charged with bk fraud (we do not handle criminal matters but refer them out). One such person, IMHO, was not deserving of conviction and the 32 month sentence he/she got but, apparently, the jury and judge didn't see it that way.

Des.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

Lakiesha7624 — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:41:42 GMT

Same thing happened to me. I have two cards that have stayed open the whole time of my chapter 13. So tempted to use but I know I can't.

Re: Amex kept me after BK

despritfreya — Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:43:13 GMT

@despritfreya wrote:
In a consumer case, payments to a creditor that amount to $600 or more, paid within the 90 days prior to filing, are listed on the SOFA (having nothing to do with what a trustee does or does not ask). It is then up to the Trustee (if a Chapter 7) to decide to recover the $. Note: if this is a non-consumer case, the threshold goes from $600 to $5,757.00 in the 90 day window.

Sorry folks - I only just saw this. I inverted my numbers. The non-consumer preference threshold is $7,575.00. Sorry for the confusion.

Des.