topic Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations in Credit Cards

EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:29:13 GMT

Hello, everyone! With the EMV liability shift in recent memory, I'm starting this thread to ask myFICOers from around the United States to ask which merchants they often frequent have enabled this functionality of their credit card terminals. If you have encountered EMV in the wild since the liability shift, please answer the following questions:

Under which merchant category does the merchant fall?
In which state is the merchant located?
Were you surprised that this particular merchant had this functionality enabled? If so, why?

I'll be the first to get this thread going by posting my responses to the aforementioned questions:

Restaurants
Pennsylvania
Yes, I was surprised for two reasons: this merchant had not accepted credit cards up to this point in time, and the merchant is a rather small enterprise.

If you have any other information to add, or you have questions for other myFICOers concerning EMV or the liability shift, please feel free to post them in the discussion. This thread can be as amorphous as we desire, as long as it relates back to the subject.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Kutuzov — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:41:48 GMT

I'm a truck driver so I usually shop in many different states on any given week.

1 Restaurants/small business in general are more proactive in having the EMV than bigger business. There was this Little Cesar pizza on a backroad either in AL or TN, can't recall, that they got the EMV working even before the deadline.

Big Truck Stops branded names, like Pilot, Loves, and TA, don't have it working yet. Same for groceries stores like Publix (at least last time I was on one).

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:36:32 GMT

I'm wondering how long before gas stations switch to EMV. I used a Sheetz gas station yesterday and they have not switched. I'd think that's where a lot of fraud comes from. But I'm guessing it's a corporate decision because it's a big expense to change them?

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:44:47 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm wondering how long before gas stations switch to EMV. I used a Sheetz gas station yesterday and they have not switched. I'd think that's where a lot of fraud comes from. But I'm guessing it's a corporate decision because it's a big expense to change them?

Probably won't see them for awhile. Gas stations were given an extra 2 years to convert.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:15:13 GMT

A Saturday reading material for ya'll (if you haven't read it yet)

he FBI warns of weaknesses in chip-and-sign credit card systems

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Open123 — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:33:34 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
A Saturday reading material for ya'll (if you haven't read it yet)
he FBI warns of weaknesses in chip-and-sign credit card systems

The issue I have with "chip & pin" is that the adoption potentially chips away at consumer protections. To prove charges were made by me, a Merchant/Bank needs to provide a physical slip with my signature authorizing the charge. If this doesn't match or if it isn't provided, they lose.

What if we adopt a pin, and a thief guesses my pin? Maybe I used my b'day? Maybe I had written it down to keep from forgetting? Maybe it was compromised another way? So, if a correct pin was entered, for whatever reason, is it now "assumed" I'm liable for the charges? If the latter is the case, I will either (1) refuse to use a chip & pin, or (2) stop using CCs altogether, if chip & pin becomes the standard.

Even abroad, I have an intense disliking for chip & pin, and avoid it, if I can. And, I don't get this "let's follow the world" thing. We run to the beat of our own drum in this country. As my Father used to say, "I don't live in the world, I live in friggin New York city."

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:41:55 GMT

1. Walmart
2. Ohio
3. They have been using it for months now.

Most of my normal stores don't have it, I hope they get contactless when they get EMV. I really have become used to using Apple Pay now that I have been using it for the bonus on Discover. I like how I don't give them my actual credit card number and I get an instant notification of the payment amount, now I don't collect as many receipts.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

nyancat — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:52:59 GMT

Gas stations were not given two more years. AFDs were. The liability shift applies inside their stores now.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:15:17 GMT

@Open123 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
A Saturday reading material for ya'll (if you haven't read it yet)
he FBI warns of weaknesses in chip-and-sign credit card systems
The issue I have with "chip & pin" is that the adoption potentially chips away at consumer protections. To prove charges were made by me, a Merchant/Bank needs to provide a physical slip with my signature authorizing the charge. If this doesn't match or if it isn't provided, they lose.

What if we adopt a pin, and a thief guesses my pin? Maybe I used my b'day? Maybe I had written it down to keep from forgetting? Maybe it was compromised another way? So, if a correct pin was entered, for whatever reason, is it now "assumed" I'm liable for the charges? If the latter is the case, I will either (1) refuse to use a chip & pin, or (2) stop using CCs altogether, if chip & pin becomes the standard.

Even abroad, I have an intense disliking for chip & pin, and avoid it, if I can. And, I don't get this "let's follow the world" thing. We run to the beat of our own drum in this country. As my Father used to say, "I don't live in the world, I live in friggin New York city."

I remember asking this before! What about an ATM? Do you not use those?

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Open123 — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:24:01 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I remember asking this before! What about an ATM? Do you not use those?

I do, though not very often.

However, for the associated ATM checking accounts, I keep the balance at or around $500 with no overdraft. And, when possible, I set ATM maximum withdrawals to $100; some, I even set to $20. Also, ATMs usually have a $500 limit, which is the most I can lose in the case of a compromised pin. However, for a CC, this could potentially be a huge amount of liability.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:00:54 GMT

Every time I use it is a bit of a surprise. Frankly a lot of places didn't make the deadline, likely more than people were expecting.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:05:47 GMT

@Open123 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
A Saturday reading material for ya'll (if you haven't read it yet)
he FBI warns of weaknesses in chip-and-sign credit card systems
The issue I have with "chip & pin" is that the adoption potentially chips away at consumer protections. To prove charges were made by me, a Merchant/Bank needs to provide a physical slip with my signature authorizing the charge. If this doesn't match or if it isn't provided, they lose.

What if we adopt a pin, and a thief guesses my pin? Maybe I used my b'day? Maybe I had written it down to keep from forgetting? Maybe it was compromised another way? So, if a correct pin was entered, for whatever reason, is it now "assumed" I'm liable for the charges? If the latter is the case, I will either (1) refuse to use a chip & pin, or (2) stop using CCs altogether, if chip & pin becomes the standard.

Even abroad, I have an intense disliking for chip & pin, and avoid it, if I can. And, I don't get this "let's follow the world" thing. We run to the beat of our own drum in this country. As my Father used to say, "I don't live in the world, I live in friggin New York city."

Considering a) there are known vulnerabilities with PIN the way most banks implement it and b) changes in consumer liability would require changes to federal law, I don't think that itself should be grounds to prefer chip and signature. However, since stores can waive signature for small amounts and can't do so for PIN, there can be a speed advantage* with the former. That might be worthwhile for some.

BTW the ABA actually made the FBI take down that notice "to clarify it". The whole whinefest from retailers is amusing, especially since they're not going to get any increased liability just because they accepted a card without a PIN.

*Mostly domestically. Foreign merchants tend not to waive it regardless of the amount.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:07:25 GMT

I've seen more than several stores which HAVE the EMV hardware installed (chip reader) yet still don't accept EMV cards. This is ridiculous and we are already years behind the rest of the world in EMV acceptance. Why are retailers delaying implementation further even when they ALREADY have the needed hardware?

Thankfully Walmart is on board and has been with EMV machines installed for months now.

Also, the major card issuers announced the liability shift in 2012-- that was 3 years ago. No sympathy for retailers who haven't gotten on board by now.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:08:54 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I've seen more than several stores which HAVE the EMV hardware installed (chip reader) yet still ask, or let, the customer slide their card. This is ridiculous and we are already years behind the rest of the world in EMV acceptance. Why are retailers delaying implementation further even when they ALREADY have the needed hardware?

Thankfully Walmart is on board and has been with EMV machines installed for months now.

Also, the major card issuers announced the liability shift in 2012-- that was 3 years ago. No sympathy for retailers who haven't gotten on board by now.

I have some sympathy for small businesses, actually. They're at the mercy of their merchant providers for the correct software to turn it on even if they have the correct terminals for it, and those providers have seriously dropped the ball there. The merchant providers also didn't really bother to train merchants on the new equipment either, so a lot don't even know that they can take NFC payments too for instance.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Open123 — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:25:44 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Considering a) there are known vulnerabilities with PIN the way most banks implement it and b) changes in consumer liability would require changes to federal law, I don't think that itself should be grounds to prefer chip and signature. However, since stores can waive signature for small amounts and can't do so for PIN, there can be a speed advantage* with the former. That might be worthwhile for some.

I had recall reading of a few cases in Europe where court ruled a correct pin # was sufficient to prove a person had made the charges, and therefore financially responsible for them. I'm not sure where the links were, but I'm sure some better at searching (I really hate searching for stuff) may unearth them.

If we, in America, were to begin a widespread adoption of chip & pin, I'd like to see either a judicial precedent or a revision in Federal law to pace with technology, and clearly stipulate that a correct pin # "in of itself" isn't proof a legitimate charge. Let's not allow the Banks and Merchants to prey on our fears and shift the burden to us, especially since we currently have ZERO fraud liability.

In other words, until I'm liable for fraud, I couldn't care less about it. Since it's the Merchants and Banks problem, just don't inconvenience me with ID checks, overly sensitive fraud algorithms, and "trojan horses" to shift the burden to unsuspecting consumers.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:37:49 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

BTW the ABA actually made the FBI take down that notice "to clarify it".

Within that article is a link which contains the (to me!) interesting info:

At Visa, executives claimed that 57% of U.S. consumers now have at least one chip card in their wallet, but conceded it will take two to five years for card adoption to top 90%. Visa said it had issued 151 million chip-embedded debit and credit cards as of Sept. 15, about 21% of Visa’s total.

So up to 5 years to reach just 90%! Not exactly a flash cut.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:41:22 GMT

I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:47:21 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.

That brings up a good point--has anyone had issues disputing debit card transactions? At least some of those used a PIN, right?

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Open123 — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:47:49 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.

With your secret pin # used for the transaction, how will you prove it wasn't you?

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Open123 — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:48:52 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.
That brings up a good point--has anyone had issues disputing debit card transactions? At least some of those used a PIN, right?

I'd imagine, if a pin were used, you'd have a heck of a time avoiding the liability.