topic Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP in Credit Cards

Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Random_idiot — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 15:55:37 GMT

Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?

Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Ghoshida — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 16:34:29 GMT

@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc

Let's tackle venture rewards first.

Suppose you spend $10,000 on it. That gives you 20,000 miles. This is redeemable for $200 of travel spend (can be redeemed against the same spend multiple times) or $100 of regular cashback. That means, you better spend something on travel. Not dining, not entertainment, but travel. That way, it's restricted cashback. The value is never more than $200, and can be less. Further, there are no point combination options from other kind of cards.

Now looking at CSP, suppose you spend the same amount.

If you spent it all on travel and / or dining, you have 20,000 UR points. Otherwise, you have something between 10,000 and 20,000 points. For argument's sake, you have 15,000 points. It's worth at least $150, if you simply redeemed it for cash. But that's the lowest value.

For the next best value, redeem it for travel. First option is simple: book through Chase's Ultimate Rewards. It'll give you 20% more value, so $150 cashback becomes $180 in travel. But you can get even more value by transferring to frequent flier partners.

Again, simplest option is generally Southwest. Typically, one mile transferred to Southwest is worth 1.6c, therefore that 15,000 UR points is now worth $240 in travel. Already doing better than venture.

You can do even better, but for that you need some patience and timing. Transfer to airlines with international routes and premium classes. You can often get 2-3cents per point, or even more. That way, the same 15,000 UR points is worth $300.

Another way to look at is, the same spend in venture will give you at most $200, while with Chase, you can get definitely more.

Then, there are better travel perks, like primary car rental. I used to rent almost on a weekly basis. Can't even begin to estimate how much I saved.

One more thing. With CSP, you can have another card like the Freedom, which allows you to get 5x rewards on quarterly categories. Chase allows you to combine the points if you have a CSP and then transfer it to the frequent flier accounts. That way, you magnify the rewards from the Freedom as well.

With the bonus, CSP's 55,000 UR points (50k bonus + 5k AU bonus) will land you $900 worth of airfare (conservative estimates) while 40,000 points from venture will get you $400, at best.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 16:38:21 GMT

@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc

Venture is only worth getting for the bonus, for the first year, it is just a 2% restricted cashback card with an annual fee (after the first year) The 2 miles per $ just means you get a 2% cashback when you redeem them against previous travel purchases. You can get free cards that give you 2% everywhere with no category redemption restrictions.

In contrast, the CSP UR points can be transferred to travel partners (e.g. United, Hyatt) and used in their reward programs. It's POSSIBLE to get lots of value that way, espeicially on international premium cabin flights. You can also purchase through their portal at 1.25c per UR (but this may not be the cheapest way).

For many, a cash back card may be a better choice (if spend isn't hight) but in that case go with a free 2% card rather than Venture, after the first year!

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

delaney1 — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 16:53:38 GMT

To get the full value for Venture mile, you must spend on travel OR giftcard redemptions. So that Venture bonus of $400 can be used to purchase Best Buy Giftcards, Target, etc etc on CapOnes website.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Random_idiot — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:07:38 GMT

@Ghoshida wrote:
@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc
Let's tackle venture rewards first.

Suppose you spend $10,000 on it. That gives you 20,000 miles. This is redeemable for $200 of travel spend (can be redeemed against the same spend multiple times) or $100 of regular cashback. That means, you better spend something on travel. Not dining, not entertainment, but travel. That way, it's restricted cashback. The value is never more than $200, and can be less. Further, there are no point combination options from other kind of cards.

Now looking at CSP, suppose you spend the same amount.

If you spent it all on travel and / or dining, you have 20,000 UR points. Otherwise, you have something between 10,000 and 20,000 points. For argument's sake, you have 15,000 points. It's worth at least $150, if you simply redeemed it for cash. But that's the lowest value.

For the next best value, redeem it for travel. First option is simple: book through Chase's Ultimate Rewards. It'll give you 20% more value, so $150 cashback becomes $180 in travel. But you can get even more value by transferring to frequent flier partners.

Again, simplest option is generally Southwest. Typically, one mile transferred to Southwest is worth 1.6c, therefore that 15,000 UR points is now worth $240 in travel. Already doing better than venture.

You can do even better, but for that you need some patience and timing. Transfer to airlines with international routes and premium classes. You can often get 2-3cents per point, or even more. That way, the same 15,000 UR points is worth $300.

Another way to look at is, the same spend in venture will give you at most $200, while with Chase, you can get definitely more.

Then, there are better travel perks, like primary car rental. I used to rent almost on a weekly basis. Can't even begin to estimate how much I saved.

One more thing. With CSP, you can have another card like the Freedom, which allows you to get 5x rewards on quarterly categories. Chase allows you to combine the points if you have a CSP and then transfer it to the frequent flier accounts. That way, you magnify the rewards from the Freedom as well.

With the bonus, CSP's 55,000 UR points (50k bonus + 5k AU bonus) will land you $900 worth of airfare (conservative estimates) while 40,000 points from venture will get you $400, at best.

Well explained!! Thank you! +1.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

galahad15 — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:16:30 GMT

Tbh, my personal preference is for the Venture, if only b/c I only travel by air once a year at most, if even that (and some years not at all). In mho, Venture is also a lot easier to redeem rapidly -- I like the simplicity of how the Purchase Eraser feature works; you don't have to work out a lot of complex math in your head or on paper, lol I have the Cap1 card that was the predecessor to the Venture and has pretty much all the same features. Most of my travel goes towards the local subway again though, not to the airlines.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:27:09 GMT

@galahad15 wrote:
Tbh, my personal preference is for the Venture, if only b/c I only travel by air once a year at most, if even that (and some years not at all). In mho, Venture is also a lot easier to redeem rapidly -- I like the simplicity of how the Purchase Eraser feature works; you don't have to work out a lot of complex math in your head or on paper, lol I have the Cap1 card that was the predecessor to the Venture and has pretty much all the same features. Most of my travel goes towards the local subway again though, not to the airlines.

But how do you justify the AF since you already have the free 2% Blispay for example.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Random_idiot — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:33:53 GMT

Also, as a follow up question, How much would one need to spend with the CSP to justify the AF?

Again, sorry if its a simple solution, I am new to all this..

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

galahad15 — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:37:49 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@galahad15 wrote:
Tbh, my personal preference is for the Venture, if only b/c I only travel by air once a year at most, if even that (and some years not at all). In mho, Venture is also a lot easier to redeem rapidly -- I like the simplicity of how the Purchase Eraser feature works; you don't have to work out a lot of complex math in your head or on paper, lol I have the Cap1 card that was the predecessor to the Venture and has pretty much all the same features. Most of my travel goes towards the local subway again though, not to the airlines.
But how do you justify the AF since you already have the free 2% Blispay for example.

A very good and valid point -- the Cap1 EO was willing to permanently waive my AF in 2015 when they re-opened the card for me; had closed it a few months prior for that very issue, b/c I was unhappy with the AF that I had been paying since I first got the card in 2012. If they had not been willing to perma-waive the AF though, I would not have reopened the card. Unfortunately, that was before the EO later became much more limited, in what they can do for customers I had contacted them at the time when you could actually still call in and speak with the EO directly.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Ghoshida — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:52:08 GMT

@Random_idiot wrote:
Also, as a follow up question, How much would one need to spend with the CSP to justify the AF?

Again, sorry if its a simple solution, I am new to all this..

Well, there are a couple of approaches here. All approaches assume that you are going to spend the UR points on travel (at least on Southwest).

Caveat: Don't book Southwest close to travel date. Points get bad values then. I'd suggest 2-3 weeks in advance if not more (rough guide).

Approach one:

Do you have a Freedom? And if yes, do you get close to maxing out the category bonuses?

If yes, then the cost of owning a CSP is zero. Suppose you spend $5000 per year in category spend alone. That nets you 25,000 UR. Without the CSP, your value is $250 (or $300 if using Chase travel). But if you have the CSP, you're almost guaranteed to get 1.6 cpp on Southwest. That gets you $400 worth of value. This is $100 more than the next best value of $300, and it covers the cost of the CSP AF. If you get any further points off the CSP, it's simply added bonus.

Approach two:

Suppose approach one doesn't work for you. What's your next best general purpose card? Nowadays, it's typically a 2% card like Blispay or Citi Doublecash.

Now you need to give me your spend %age. How much of dining / travel vs other categories?

If I assume it's 50-50, then on an average, $100 gets you 150 points, which are typically worth $2.40 when redeemed for Southwest (1.6 cents per point). The same spend on Blispay / Doublecash gets you $2. So you're better off by 40 cents per $100, or $4 per $1,000. To make up for the $95 annual fee, you should therefore spend ($95/$4)*$1000 = $23,750.

If you are able to get greater values off your UR points, which some on these forums are known to get, your spend threshold will come down. You should be able to do the math from here.

Edited to add:

A third approach will be a combination of the two approaches outlined here. You may be able to spend some fraction on the Freedom, and the rest on the CSP, and come ahead on the annual fee. I have paid the AF on the CSP once and I'm happy to pay it again

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 20:56:10 GMT

@Random_idiot wrote:
Also, as a follow up question, How much would one need to spend with the CSP to justify the AF?

Again, sorry if its a simple solution, I am new to all this..

Unless you have several new cards (or can't meet the needed spend) the great thing about the CSP is that is free to try for the first year, with a great bonus. So if you can spend $4K in 3 months, I would suggest going for it and then seeing how much value you get out of it.

Some find of it of less value than advertised here because of reasons such as:

a) they spend too little to get the needed level of points

b) they don't have enough date-flexibility for award travel to work for them

c) The "best" redemptions such as 1st class international travel aren't appropriate (family wants to travel together and need coach tickets for the cost for example)

Having it free for a year will allow you to see if it makes sense to continue

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Random_idiot — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 21:52:07 GMT

Perfect. So what i need to do is apply for the freedom once my cap1 reports to the CBs, and after 6 months go for csp.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Random_idiot — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 21:53:11 GMT

Kudos to everyone in here for the advice. Appreciate the advice.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

SouthJamaica — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 22:03:08 GMT

@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc

I like the Venture approach better, because I don't have the brain cells to waste on figuring out how to maximize the CSP travel rewards.

And with Venture you redeem it on Orbitz which has lots of discount travel options, basically everything you could want.

I'm guessing that if you're a very very frequent flier, cards like CSP and Amex Platinum produce dividends for you beyond what the Venture provides, but if not, and if you value (a) discount travel and (b) simplicity, Venture may be the better option.

Some day I intend to get me a CSP just to see if I can play that game, but I have a hunch I will not have the patience for it, and will wind up wasting the time and money just like I've wasted the money I've spent on the Amex platinum.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 22:03:35 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc
I like the Venture approach better, because I don't have the brain cells to waste on figuring out how to maximize the CSP travel rewards.

And with Venture you redeem it on Orbitz which has lots of discount travel options, basically everything you could want.

I'm guessing that if you're a very very frequent flier, cards like CSP and Amex Platinum produce dividends for you beyond what the Venture provides, but if not, and if you value (a) discount travel and (b) simplicity, Venture may be the better option.

Some day I intend to CSP just to see if I can play that game, but I have a hunch I will not have the patience for it.

Usual question though: if you pay the AF, why is it better than a general free 2% card. That is what I really don't get. (Well, assuming you have another no FTF card)

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

SouthJamaica — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 22:16:46 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc
I like the Venture approach better, because I don't have the brain cells to waste on figuring out how to maximize the CSP travel rewards.

And with Venture you redeem it on Orbitz which has lots of discount travel options, basically everything you could want.

I'm guessing that if you're a very very frequent flier, cards like CSP and Amex Platinum produce dividends for you beyond what the Venture provides, but if not, and if you value (a) discount travel and (b) simplicity, Venture may be the better option.

Some day I intend to CSP just to see if I can play that game, but I have a hunch I will not have the patience for it.

Usual question though: if you pay the AF, why is it better than a general free 2% card. That is what I really don't get. (Well, assuming you have another no FTF card)

Well that's not exactly a fair question, what 2% card? If you're talking abstractly, would Venture be better if it its rewards could be used dollar for dollar for cash as well as travel, and if it had no annual fee, the answer is of course yes.

But in the real world, the only 2% card I have is the Citi DC, which for me has been a really creepy card in many ways.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 22:37:29 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Random_idiot wrote:
Excuse me if I sound stupid with this question, but I am new to the whole rewards thing and am looking for a new card to apply to while my scores update.

Cap 1 VR says 2 miles per dollar on EVERY purchase.

CSP has 2 points per dollar on travel only and 1 per dollar on everything else..

Cap 1 has the lesser annual fee, however CSP has the better sign up bonus..

If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc
I like the Venture approach better, because I don't have the brain cells to waste on figuring out how to maximize the CSP travel rewards.

And with Venture you redeem it on Orbitz which has lots of discount travel options, basically everything you could want.

I'm guessing that if you're a very very frequent flier, cards like CSP and Amex Platinum produce dividends for you beyond what the Venture provides, but if not, and if you value (a) discount travel and (b) simplicity, Venture may be the better option.

Some day I intend to CSP just to see if I can play that game, but I have a hunch I will not have the patience for it.

Usual question though: if you pay the AF, why is it better than a general free 2% card. That is what I really don't get. (Well, assuming you have another no FTF card)
Well that's not exactly a fair question, what 2% card? If you're talking abstractly, would Venture be better if it its rewards could be used dollar for dollar for cash as well as travel, and if it had no annual fee, the answer is of course yes.

But in the real world, the only 2% card I have is the Citi DC, which for me has been a really creepy card in many ways.

OK, but not everyone finds the DC creepy. I wasn't talking abstractly, I meant compared to DC, Fid Visa, Blispay. Is it worth $59 a year to avoid using a creepy DC (or apping for another 2% card).

Just my reaction to people promoting cards with AF when (obviously IMO) there are free cards that are the same or better.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

SouthJamaica — Sun, 07 Aug 2016 21:53:33 GMT

I don't have Fidelity or Blispay so can't compare.

Can just say I much prefer my Venture card to my Citi DC

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 04:13:35 GMT

To OP,

Be very careful because Chase has the dreaded 5/24 rule...they will decline practically any application if you have received 5 credit cards in the previous 24 months. According to your signature, you have 2 credit cards hence you are in the clear to apply for both the Freedom and CSP. However, if you have more then choose wisely which card to app for.

Re: Cap 1 Venture Rewards vs CSP

takeshi74 — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 14:05:00 GMT

@Random_idiot wrote:
If you were looking for long term card use.. isnt cap 1 the better rewards card?
Can someone elaborate as everywhere I google or ask, people say CSP is the best travels reward card, etc

Better is always highly subjective, regardless of topic. You can't just poll or Google to determine what's best for you. You need to understand your needs, wants, spend, etc and do a proper analysis to determine what suits you best.

With programs like Ultimate Rewards. Membership Rewards, etc you need to look beyond just the earn rates and carefully research redemptions and run the numbers for your spend to determine the value you can get per point and to ensure that you have sufficient spend to accrue points and redeem in a reasonable timeframe. Eg. you don't want to have to spend 5 years accumulatinn enough points to redeem for a high value reward.

No card is going to be universally best. The CSP is best suited to me because I travel on United who is a UR transfer partner and because I can redeem with United for high value fares. By contrast, with MR the best value I can attain with redemption options I can use work out to a much lower value. You can always redeem UR points for cash back at 1 cent per point but that isn't the highest possible value depending on how well you can leverage the redemption options.

As others have stated, the Venture is really a resticted cash back card. If you have enough spend that you can redeem against then it could possible be a good option but many find that a 2% on all spend card without the redemption restrictions is a better fit. If you don't have a lot of spend to run through a program like UR, MR, etc then cash back may be better suited to you.

Of course, that doesn't consider the CSP's sign on bonus but, again, the value of the sign on bonus is dependent on how you can redeem the UR points and what value you can attain.

@Random_idiot wrote:
Also, as a follow up question, How much would one need to spend with the CSP to justify the AF?

Again, sorry if its a simple solution, I am new to all this..

You just have to think it through and do the math. You need to be able to do this to perform your analysis. At only 1x earn and 1 cent per point redemption you'd need $9,500 in spend to offset the AF. $9,500 at 1x is 9,500 UR points. 9,500 UR points * $0.01 = $95. Obviously if you can earn at 2x you'd need half that spend. If you can redeem at 2 cents per point you'd need half that spend. If you can earn at 2x and redeem at 2 cents per point you'd only need a quarter of the spend.

However, you need to consider much more than just offsetting the AF. If you only have enough spend/redemption to cover the AF then the CSP is probably a poor fit IMO. My rewards with UR are many, many multiples of the AF. Generally speaking, programs like this require a large amount of spend run through them for one to really benefit.

What you really need to do is crunch the numbers for the cards you're comparing and see which provides the best rewards for your spend. You want to understand in terms of $ to compare the different options so it's not just which is more but by how much.