topic Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR? in Credit Cards

Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

xgac12x — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 03:05:35 GMT

I currently have the Trifecta except with the CSP. I just read something on wallaby that saying that even without spending a dollar more that the CSR would still be the better card? What would be the better card?

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Revelate — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 03:12:23 GMT

@xgac12x wrote:
I currently have the Trifecta except with the CSP. I just read something on wallaby that saying that even without spending a dollar more that the CSR would still be the better card? What would be the better card?

Depends on your spend across the Trifecta but the pool of people who would actually use the CSP over the CSR is pretty small in my estimation: either your spend aligns and it doesn't take much to spank the CSP, or it doesn't and other than bonus chasing there isn't a reason to apply for either.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

K-in-Boston — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:44:15 GMT

As Revelate said, it comes down to spend and perhaps sign-up bonuses. If you travel, eliminate $300 of the annual fee from travel credit and you're comparing $150 to $95 AF. If you spend a lot on dining and travel, you're getting 3x points instead of 2x points on those with CSR.

If you are going to be redeeming your UR points through Chase for travel the CSR is a no-brainer due to the 1.5 multiplier instead of the 1.25 one for CSP, as this what your perfect spending allocation (using the right card for every purchase) would net you in travel per dollar spent:

Freedom (5% categories) - CSP=6.25 cents, CSR=7.5 cents

Dining/Travel on CSP or CSR- CSP=2.5 cents, CSR=4.5 cents

Freedom Unlimited (everything else) - CSP=1.875 cents, CSR=2.25 cents

That adds up quickly!

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

enjoimorenow — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 19:37:46 GMT

Agreed, if you can utilize the $300 credit, which should be easy, there is almost no way that a CSP is better. You could sign up for both the CSP and CSR to get the sign up bonuses, and then PC the CSP to Freedom or FU and combine limits

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

SecretAzure — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 19:55:10 GMT

@enjoimorenow wrote:
Agreed, if you can utilize the $300 credit, which should be easy, there is almost no way that a CSP is better. You could sign up for both the CSP and CSR to get the sign up bonuses, and then PC the CSP to Freedom or FU and combine limits

There's this spreadsheet available online that says if you total at least $220 in monthly travel and dining spend (any combination of this, $0 Travel+220 Dining, or $20 Travel, $200 dining, etc. ) then CSR is the clear winner. If you spend less than that, CSP is better. However, this spreadsheet does not account for having Freedom and Freedom Unlimited...I presume because then it becomes a mess to mathematically find that out. I don't spend $2,640 in travel and dining a year so if I had to choose one, CSP would be better for me....again, in this imaginary world where Freedom and Freedom Unlimited don't exist. I don't know how the math works out...that's just what it gives me at 0.021 UR valuation. Make of this info what you will but I don't think it's as clear-cut as people on the forums are making it out to be, CSR is not better for everyone.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Fri, 28 Apr 2017 21:37:26 GMT

Amex has offered 10% cashback / 10X MR points on BCP/BCE/blue for business so amex gets all my dining spend for now. Also, if you are looking to add authorized users, CSP wont charge you a fee. Having said that, CSR is better IMO.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Revelate — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:03:54 GMT

@SecretAzure wrote:
@enjoimorenow wrote:
Agreed, if you can utilize the $300 credit, which should be easy, there is almost no way that a CSP is better. You could sign up for both the CSP and CSR to get the sign up bonuses, and then PC the CSP to Freedom or FU and combine limits
There's this spreadsheet available online that says if you total at least $220 in monthly travel and dining spend (any combination of this, $0 Travel+220 Dining, or $20 Travel, $200 dining, etc. ) then CSR is the clear winner. If you spend less than that, CSP is better. However, this spreadsheet does not account for having Freedom and Freedom Unlimited...I presume because then it becomes a mess to mathematically find that out. I don't spend $2,640 in travel and dining a year so if I had to choose one, CSP would be better for me....again, in this imaginary world where Freedom and Freedom Unlimited don't exist. I don't know how the math works out...that's just what it gives me at 0.021 UR valuation. Make of this info what you will but I don't think it's as clear-cut as people on the forums are making it out to be, CSR is not better for everyone.

When you get down to 2640 in travel and dining a year, at that 1 cpp valuation you're using via the portal to roughly get that number, you don't even break even on the CSP ergo you shouldn't have either at that point if you ignore Freedom/FU, better off with a flat 2% card among others (probably better ones like that newer FBNO) so I would define your use case as spend not aligning .

If you're valuing higher than 1 cpp, then that skews.

Stupid napkin math on the the rest though assuming I haven't done something silly (which happens for all that I took a bunch of math courses in my life):

If you max out one quarter on the Freedom, you've earned an additional 1875 points via the CSR, 2 quarters which is reasonable for just about anyone, 3750 or 37.50 at 1 cpp or 68% of the additional AF.

Or if you spend $14666 in default (which seems high I'll admit, though I get close in tax payments) it justifies the CSR; but looping it in with the Freedom two quarters, now you're down to what, $4666 in default and that's a different colored cat.

Basically what it comes down to is if you can justify the CSP, it's really really not that hard to make the jump to CSR land assuming you spend at least $300 annually in travel when we're talking Trifecta, and that's before any spending on the CSR itself. That's why I would suggest if it makes sense for you to have the CSP at all when talking trifecta, you should probably be in the CSR flat out... I'm sure there's some small window in there where maybe you can win with the CSP, but I'd argue there are better products to be with than the Trifecta at that point.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

sillykitty1 — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 15:15:30 GMT

@SecretAzure wrote:
@enjoimorenow wrote:
Agreed, if you can utilize the $300 credit, which should be easy, there is almost no way that a CSP is better. You could sign up for both the CSP and CSR to get the sign up bonuses, and then PC the CSP to Freedom or FU and combine limits
There's this spreadsheet available online that says if you total at least $220 in monthly travel and dining spend (any combination of this, $0 Travel+220 Dining, or $20 Travel, $200 dining, etc. ) then CSR is the clear winner. If you spend less than that, CSP is better. However, this spreadsheet does not account for having Freedom and Freedom Unlimited...I presume because then it becomes a mess to mathematically find that out. I don't spend $2,640 in travel and dining a year so if I had to choose one, CSP would be better for me....again, in this imaginary world where Freedom and Freedom Unlimited don't exist. I don't know how the math works out...that's just what it gives me at 0.021 UR valuation. Make of this info what you will but I don't think it's as clear-cut as people on the forums are making it out to be, CSR is not better for everyone.

I agree with Revelate ... if one's travel/dining spend is that low, then it's not a CSR vs. CSP discussion, it's does an travel/dining AF card make sense at all?

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:51:14 GMT

@sillykitty1 wrote:
@SecretAzure wrote:
@enjoimorenow wrote:
Agreed, if you can utilize the $300 credit, which should be easy, there is almost no way that a CSP is better. You could sign up for both the CSP and CSR to get the sign up bonuses, and then PC the CSP to Freedom or FU and combine limits
There's this spreadsheet available online that says if you total at least $220 in monthly travel and dining spend (any combination of this, $0 Travel+220 Dining, or $20 Travel, $200 dining, etc. ) then CSR is the clear winner. If you spend less than that, CSP is better. However, this spreadsheet does not account for having Freedom and Freedom Unlimited...I presume because then it becomes a mess to mathematically find that out. I don't spend $2,640 in travel and dining a year so if I had to choose one, CSP would be better for me....again, in this imaginary world where Freedom and Freedom Unlimited don't exist. I don't know how the math works out...that's just what it gives me at 0.021 UR valuation. Make of this info what you will but I don't think it's as clear-cut as people on the forums are making it out to be, CSR is not better for everyone.
I agree with Revelate ... if one's travel/dining spend is that low, then it's not a CSR vs. CSP discussion, it's does an travel/dining AF card make sense at all?

Yes, I agree too. And it sounds as if it's not only Freedom/FU that's left out, there is (presumably) some value as well to the additional features, such as lounge access and Global Entry.

IMO, the real CSP niche is for non-travelers who want the bonus first year and then plan to downgrade/cancel. The big difference is that the first year is free for CSP and not for CSR.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:04:49 GMT

As others have said, it all depends on your travel Spend.

Ask yourself these questions:

Can you utilize the $300 Travel Credit?
Does a good chunk of your annual spend go towards Travel? (For redeeming the UR)

And is a $900 AF over 2 years too much? Vs. a $95 AF over 2 years?

For me I spend at least 4k annually on dining but not much on Travel. And my Amex gives me 3% on dining Year round with No AF. So for me personally it wouldn't work right now, but everyone is different.

Also it looks like they cut down the sign up bonus for CSR so low what's up with that wasn't it 70/80k just a month ago?????

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:07:39 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
As others have said, it all depends on your travel Spend.

Ask yourself these questions:

Can you utilize the $300 Travel Credit?
Does a good chunk of your annual spend go towards Travel? (For redeeming the UR)

And is a $900 AF over 2 years too much? Vs. a $95 AF over 2 years?

For me I spend at least 4k annually on dining but not much on Travel. And my Amex gives me 3% on dining Year round with No AF. So for me personally it wouldn't work right now, but everyone is different.

Also it looks like they cut down the sign up bonus for CSR so low what's up with that wasn't it 70/80k just a month ago?????

For the first few months, CSR was 100K (hence the excitement) then it 50K online/100K branch and now 50K everywhere.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:54:17 GMT

I don't see many people app'ing for it over the CSP since the sign up bonus is the same. Hopefully they do a period again with the increased sign up bonus or waive the first AF which would be about the same amount as having the 100k vs. 50k.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

red259 — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:32:30 GMT

@xgac12x wrote:
I currently have the Trifecta except with the CSP. I just read something on wallaby that saying that even without spending a dollar more that the CSR would still be the better card? What would be the better card?

I have had both with the travel credit I think there are only a few reasons why someone would go for the CSP over the CSR. If someone doesn't have decent spend in the bonus categories such as restaurants or travel and they don't use the perks of the CSR like PP lounge acccess etc AND they don't have an ink card so they need a card to transfer points to travel partners then I can see the CSP making sense. Another scenario when doing a no card app is this. The CSR is more likely than the CSP to have a large signup offer in the future, so if I was only going for one now I would probably consider the current bonuses and if I think the CSR 100k may come back I might just go for the CSP in the meantime unless I had an urgent need for the CSR (ie, I need the benefits or have large amounts of upcoming spend in CSR bonus categories).

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

red259 — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:48:13 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
As Revelate said, it comes down to spend and perhaps sign-up bonuses. If you travel, eliminate $300 of the annual fee from travel credit and you're comparing $150 to $95 AF. If you spend a lot on dining and travel, you're getting 3x points instead of 2x points on those with CSR.

If you are going to be redeeming your UR points through Chase for travel the CSR is a no-brainer due to the 1.5 multiplier instead of the 1.25 one for CSP, as this what your perfect spending allocation (using the right card for every purchase) would net you in travel per dollar spent:

Freedom (5% categories) - CSP=6.25 cents, CSR=7.5 cents
Dining/Travel on CSP or CSR- CSP=2.5 cents, CSR=4.5 cents
Freedom Unlimited (everything else) - CSP=1.875 cents, CSR=2.25 cents

That adds up quickly!

It all gets rather complicated when you add in other cards. For example on restaurant and travel spend there will be freedom quarters that will divert spend from the CSR to those for 3 months. Also, if someone has an ink plus/bold card then they dont need a CSP or CSR in order to transfer points and can downgrade to a CS with no AF and still get 2x at restaurants. Then you need to look at your other cards, because many of us don't focus on just one program. For example I currently have the amex business blue which gives me 10x Amex MRs per $1 on restaurant for the first six months on my first 2k restaurant spend and it gives me 2 points per dollar on everything else for the first year (seriously an awesome no AF card). Clearly that is impacting my restaurant spend on the CSR and it has delayed me in switching my CS to the freedom unlimited. At least for the next year.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

wilmer007 — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 21:02:12 GMT

Even with the 100k bonus drop to 50k the CSR is still the way to go. the 50% bonus in points is enough to have it. I would say if you can get both that would best as you can PC the CSP after the sign up bonus down to either another Freedom (if you find yourself spending more than the quarterly caps) or to a Slate if you plan on paying interest (rather pointless) or you would like to monitor your Experian FICO score for free. I doubt they will PC to something like the Amazon cards but if they do you definately wanna PC to those instead.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Revelate — Sat, 29 Apr 2017 21:15:01 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I don't see many people app'ing for it over the CSP since the sign up bonus is the same. Hopefully they do a period again with the increased sign up bonus or waive the first AF which would be about the same amount as having the 100k vs. 50k.

Well you're talking bonus chasers and FOTM types who shouldn't rationally be picking up either if they stopped to do the math outside of the bonus; for the forum people who would use the card, we already have it and this forum is so far outside the general population anyway.

On that point, when I got denied from 5/24 for the CSR, I PC'd my CSP to it with a quickness. If your spend and needs do align, well, frankly in my opinion it's nothing short of brilliant. I did a bit of math on my lounge use vs. airport food and drinks over the last two months including dragging my not so well prepared coworkers in there as guests, and it's probably more than covered the $150 residual AF and that's before my actual spend on the card which while not godlike, isn't trivial.

Also now that I've experienced other cultures, likely going to start travelling more personally (if I don't up and move outright to Singapore haha) anyway; I'll be fine with the CSR long-term even if I do manage to start cooking someday.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 00:32:24 GMT

Revelate -

I wouldn't say it's for bonus chasers, but bonuses are a large factor when signing up. To me a "bonus chaser" is someone who signs up for a card for the sole purpose of getting the bonus then PC'ing it. When I look for cards yes I do look at the sign up bonus as playing a factor in if I app for it, but I also look at long term factors as well. I'm just saying that IF I were looking between CSP and CSR right now I personally would pick CSP as I don't travel more than 3-4 times a year through airlines. I, being a rational person would wait until mid summer when they will likely again increase the sign up bonus at least to 80k or if we're lucky to 100k.

In order to make up those lost 50k UR you'd have to spend $50,000 on regular spend or at the very lowest $17,000 purely on Dining/Travel.

I'm just saying that at this particular moment in time it's not good to apply for CSR over the CSP.

In the future it may be better, and it appears that your circumstances are different than a lot of people (PC'ing the CSP because of denial).

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

red259 — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 00:43:13 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Revelate -

I wouldn't say it's for bonus chasers, but bonuses are a large factor when signing up. To me a "bonus chaser" is someone who signs up for a card for the sole purpose of getting the bonus then PC'ing it. When I look for cards yes I do look at the sign up bonus as playing a factor in if I app for it, but I also look at long term factors as well. I'm just saying that IF I were looking between CSP and CSR right now I personally would pick CSP as I don't travel more than 3-4 times a year through airlines. I, being a rational person would wait until mid summer when they will likely again increase the sign up bonus at least to 80k or if we're lucky to 100k.

In order to make up those lost 50k UR you'd have to spend $50,000 on regular spend or at the very lowest $17,000 purely on Dining/Travel.

I'm just saying that at this particular moment in time it's not good to apply for CSR over the CSP.

In the future it may be better, and it appears that your circumstances are different than a lot of people (PC'ing the CSP because of denial).

+1 in terms of the bonus being a major factor of when to apply. I have some cards that I hold on to for the benefits and as of right now I think I may keep the CSR beyond the first year assuming the benefits stay consistent. That being said I will often wait for a good bonus on a card I may want for the benefits. For example. once my marriott status expires I will likely want the amex business plat to get that status back. I will not apply for the business plat card though until A. there is a great signup, or B. I really need to in order to use the benefits on an upcoming trip.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 00:47:39 GMT

Red - Exactly.

Re: Chase Trifecta - CSP or CSR?

Anonymous — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 02:18:23 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I, being a rational person would wait until mid summer when they will likely again increase the sign up bonus at least to 80k or if we're lucky to 100k.

In order to make up those lost 50k UR you'd have to spend $50,000 on regular spend or at the very lowest $17,000 purely on Dining/Travel.

I'm just saying that at this particular moment in time it's not good to apply for CSR over the CSP.

In the future it may be better, and it appears that your circumstances are different than a lot of people (PC'ing the CSP because of denial).

What aspect of your rational personality tells you that the CSR bonus will change over the summer. CSP bonus has been pretty stable for years and I see no reason for CSR to be different.

While I don't know about Rev's plan: many people who PC to CSR are banking on the rule of one bonus per 24 months. So you can get the CSR via PC now, and once you are under 5/24, PC the card to something else and then app for CSR for the bonus, so there isn't (at least in theory) a 50K UR lost.