topic Re: Best for cash back? in Credit Cards

Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 14:25:38 GMT

So far, I have

Cap1 Quicksilver one 1.5% cash back for all

amex blue cash everyday 3% supermarkets, 2% gas, 1.0 cash for all

store cards I don't care about

(update)

had an app spree, Now for gardening as you guys call it...

Amex simply cash plus business 5% cell phone , 3% for...gas? I get to choose my second category and it's 50k each/combined not too bad

Amex blue cash everyday 3% supermarkets (instacart), 2% gas

Marvel 3% dining, entertainment, movies, online streaming...pretty much everything

Cap1 Quicksilver one 1.5% cash back whatever else

macys, home depot, store cards I don't care about but have no AF and decrease my utilization

I think this is a pretty decent lineup... I think I can use every single card every month without TRYING to do anything. I am pretty sure I can link amex to speedpass and autopay for cell phone, link all of them to samsungpay (just in case) and carry marvel and QS1 for day to day things.

(update)

My goal is to get the maximum rewards (cash in, cash out) and maximum perks (cell phone protections, warranty extension, etc) per dollar spent in every major category I spend with the least amount of cards, while having no AF. I hope to convert the QS1 to a QS with no AF.

The majority of my yearly spend (in order) is on restaurants, cell phone (business), bar/club (not so much, but it's there), gas, and travel. However, when I travel, I don't normally spend all my money on the hotel and airfare. I like getting out and seeing the sights, see local culture (more restaurants, bars and clubs, tours, etc) So, I don't think "travel" is really the big ticket item, it's stuff to do.

After somewhat extensive research (my GF is annoyed how much time I spend reading the forums)...I've tried to find a good place to figure out the conversion from points to dollars, but in general, I think cash back cards seem to do best for me. I'm open to points if they really work though.

I have my eyes on cap1 Spark business, amex simplycash plus business (actual business), and Sams club credit.

Keeping my credit worthiness to the side, as I'm talking about goals rather than immediate results, is this a good "lineup" for my spending? Anything I should add or replace? I've heard good things about the chase cards. the business card offers protection on your cell phone, which is a plus..but also sounded like the neudered it a bit much to be useful...

Re: Best for cash back?

Skymogul — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:29:06 GMT

It's hard to give you a concrete answer without spend category percentages and other fun math details. A couple thoughts though. One is that an AF should not be an automatic deal breaker. The catch is to do the "break even" math to see how much you have to spend to overcome the AF versus a comparable non-AF product. Another thought is that (although there are exceptions) travel rewards are often more generous than flat out cash back rewards.

If dining is a high spend category for you and an AF is a deal breaker, Capital One Premier Dining Rewards will give you 3% cash on dining and 2% on groceries with no AF.
Citi Double Cash will give you 2% on everything and should be on your short list based on what you're saying, also no AF. Same with Fidelity.
Alliant does 3% cash back in the first year, 2.5% thereafter, but it has a $59 AF. You'll need to spend $11,800 or more per year to make the AF worthwhile versus a 2% no AF card.

You have to do a lot of math to see if points are good for you. A lot is going to come down to the % of your spend on travel every year. Travel stuff can code more widely than you think too. Uber and taxi rides, some hotel restaurants, etc. I once took a helicopter tour of the Grand Canyon that actually coded as "other travel" on my Venture.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:37:23 GMT

Discover It

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:41:51 GMT

If you are eligible for USAA you can get 2.5 percent back if you open a checking account with direct deposit.

Truthfully if you want to maximize your money back just sign up for a new card every month or so get the sign up bonus and move on to the next one. That is what I have been doing. The percent back is very minor amount of money compared to sign up bonuses.

For example Barclay Arrival Plus gives you 500 dollars to reimburse any type of travel. Hotel Room, Airplane, Car rental, bus, whatever they will reimburse you. But you have to spend 3k to get it with 2 times points that gives you 560 dollars right there.

Re: Best for cash back?

Skymogul — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:40:16 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Truthfully if you want to maximize your money back just sign up for a new card every month or so get the sign up bonus and move on to the next one. That is what I have been doing. The percent back is very minor amount of money compared to sign up bonuses.

Sure, if you want to rip your AAoAs to shreds and cost yourself as much as 125 points of FICO.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:43:49 GMT

@Skymogul wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Truthfully if you want to maximize your money back just sign up for a new card every month or so get the sign up bonus and move on to the next one. That is what I have been doing. The percent back is very minor amount of money compared to sign up bonuses.
Sure, if you want to rip your AAoAs to shreds and cost yourself as much as 125 points of FICO.

My score keeps going up so this isn't true. And I alternate between my wife and me. She has gotten 3 new cards this year and a new car and her score weent from 808 to 804.

I have gotten 15 cards this year and my scores were 527, 527, 529 in January. Now they are 708, 710, and 659. So it seems like it has really hurt me.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:45:51 GMT

@Skymogul wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Truthfully if you want to maximize your money back just sign up for a new card every month or so get the sign up bonus and move on to the next one. That is what I have been doing. The percent back is very minor amount of money compared to sign up bonuses.
Sure, if you want to rip your AAoAs to shreds and cost yourself as much as 125 points of FICO.

That's a bit exteme. FICO will not go down that much. I did this.

Re: Best for cash back?

Skymogul — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:54:48 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I have gotten 15 cards this year and my scores were 527, 527, 529 in January. Now they are 708, 710, and 659. So it seems like it has really hurt me.

If you look at a componetized score like myFICO offers, you would see that a significant chunk of that last 140-191 points of version 8 is inquiries and AAoA.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 17:55:30 GMT

@Skymogul wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I have gotten 15 cards this year and my scores were 527, 527, 529 in January. Now they are 708, 710, and 659. So it seems like it has really hurt me.
If you look at a componetized score like myFICO offers, you would see that a significant chunk of that last 140 points of version 8 is inquiries and AAoA.

I am quite aware of my Fico 8 score. I am sure if you have had one credit card as your only account and it is 18 months old and you go out and get 20 cards in one month it might do what you are saying. But if you get a new card every two months you probably would be fine even in that case. If you got 6 new cards a year that is only 6 inquiries in 12 months that would never hurt your score to any extant. And there are plenty of ways to get cards without inquiries. The most inquiries I have on a report are 8 and 4 of those are NFCU.

The only caveat I would say is get your Chase Saphire Preffered and Chase Southwest first because of the 5/24 rule.

Re: Best for cash back?

Kforce — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 18:12:52 GMT

There are a lot of good cashback cards, What will work best for you

depend on where and how much you spend, and how many cards you want

to manage. Your credit profile determines which cards you can reasonably expect

to get. I always recommend that someone enter real spend history for

between 12 and 18 months and put the numbers into a spreadsheet or

programmable calculator. This is a little work but will let you know where your

spend is and which card or cards will be the best. NO one here can know what

is best for you and with out real numbers in each cashback category you will

also only be guessing instead of knowing.

Here is an "example only" of spend in cashback category's and cashback for 3 cards.

The spend numbers should be averages for a minimum of 12 months not you last months

spend . You can change the cash back rewards for different cards and see real numbers

for long term rewards.

Citi Double cash + Bank West Cash Back + US-Bank Cash Back

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 18:18:22 GMT

I gave my categories... I know them pretty well. 12 month average and all. My monthly spend is approx 7k, a big chunk of that is restaurant and entertainment. The only category I missed was electronics stores. I buy a lot at bestbuy for business. That being said, would bars and clubs get restaurant categories? That's the one I'm not sure on.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 18:28:48 GMT

Bars should be codes as restaurants. Interestingly enough my local liquor store was coded as groceries. Also my local WaWa has a food counter and if you buy there it gets coded as gas.

Re: Best for cash back?

happypill — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 18:36:30 GMT

@Skymogul wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Truthfully if you want to maximize your money back just sign up for a new card every month or so get the sign up bonus and move on to the next one. That is what I have been doing. The percent back is very minor amount of money compared to sign up bonuses.
Sure, if you want to rip your AAoAs to shreds and cost yourself as much as 125 points of FICO.

Utter and complete FUD.

It depends on how many cards you have already and what your AAoA is currently, but the impact will probably be in the 20-30 point range. Credit age is a factor in credit scoring, but it's just not all that important when compared with payment history and utilization (65% combined scoring impact). Of course, if you only have one card in your profile that is 20 years old and you add a dozen cards all at once, it could have a big impact to your score; but there's the benefit of expanding your portfolio so more cards can age together.

Sign-on bonuses are by far the most lucrative segment of credit card rewards so if you want to maximize, chasing those bonuses is a great strategy.

Getting back to the original question, the best cash back bonuses off the top of my head (my biggest spend categories are travel, dining, gas, groceries, Amazon):

Penfed Cash Rewards - 5% for gas

SSFCU Power Travel Rewards - 3.3% for travel, dining, gas, geography limited

BofA Travel Rewards - 2.625% on everything, requires preferred rewards relationship

USAA Limitless - 2.5% on everything, requires military relationship and geographically limited

Alliant Visa Signature 2.5% on everything (3% first year), but has AF

JCB Marukai - nearing 3% on everything, geographically limited and acceptance might be a challenge

Discover & Chase Freedom - 5% on rotating categories

US Bank Cash+ up to 5% on selected categories

Chase Amazon or Amazon Store Card - 5% on Amazon purchases

Re: Best for cash back?

Blodreina — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 19:53:01 GMT

Based on your spend, I would say the Cash+ and Marvel Mastercard. The Cash+ has 5% categories that fit your spending (e.g., cell phone bill, electronic stores). The 5% categories do have a $2,000 quarter max though; so, after $2,000 of combined spending in two categories (not each), purchases earn 1% for the rest of the quarter.

The Marvel card gives 3% on dining and entertainment (see here); I think it's a really good card.

Re: Best for cash back?

yfan — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:00:44 GMT

For a 7K monthly spending and given the limitations of 5% rotating cards (1500-2000 spend limit per quarter on a given category on which the 5% applies), you may be better off with flat cashback like the Citi Double Cash.

As for the suggestions that you become a churner, that's a way to do things, but do understand that it comes with risks. It's true that it only affects your score relative to how much your AAoA is affected, and it's also true that significantly expanding your overall credit line can even help scores. But, AAoA hit is still a significant risk, as are inquiries. However, the bigger concern is that after you do that for a while. creditors might start to catch up to you and shut down or CLD the cards you really find useful, and even eventually refuse to give you new cards (not just lenders you have already taken advantage of but that pattern in your credit report may cause other creditors to shut their doors to you before you have a chance). Non CC lenders may also take stock of your aggressive credit seeking behavior and decide against making a car loan or a mortgage loan.

Again, all of this depends on your personal profile and not everyone's experience will be the same. Some can get away with quite a lot, and some get the hammer brought on them fairly quickly. Just as you shouldn't assume you are going to be the least fortunate in this department, you should not assume you will be the most fortunate, either.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:34:04 GMT

I'm not planning on churning... But marvel was already on my list, I need a better restaurant card, and I HAD TO HAVE A awesome mix volume 1 card... So... I'll let things settle for a couple months and revisit :-)

Re: Best for cash back?

wilmer007 — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 22:38:52 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
So far, I have
Cap1 Quicksilver one 1.5% cash back for all
amex blue cash everyday 3% supermarkets, 2% gas, 1.0 cash for all
store cards I don't care about

My goal is to get the maximum rewards (cash in, cash out) and maximum perks (cell phone protections, warranty extension, etc) per dollar spent in every major category I spend with the least amount of cards, while having no AF. I hope to convert the QS1 to a QS with no AF.

The majority of my yearly spend (in order) is on restaurants, cell phone (business), bar/club (not so much, but it's there), gas, and travel. However, when I travel, I don't normally spend all my money on the hotel and airfare. I like getting out and seeing the sights, see local culture (more restaurants, bars and clubs, tours, etc) So, I don't think "travel" is really the big ticket item, it's stuff to do.

@Anonymous wrote:
I gave my categories... I know them pretty well. 12 month average and all. My monthly spend is approx 7k, a big chunk of that is restaurant and entertainment. The only category I missed was electronics stores. I buy a lot at bestbuy for business. That being said, would bars and clubs get restaurant categories? That's the one I'm not sure on.

looks to me like you are asking for BCP and CSR but since you don't want to pay $245 in AF for two cards you want to get back less money every year whereas $245 in AF will give you so much more return than that measly $245 in AF. the cashback from just the BCP alone ($265 after the cost of the AF) would cover the total $245 AF without factoring in the return you get from the CSR.

also you like to dine and travel so much with most of the $7k spending per month on that, yet you don't have the CSP/CSR (or any other travel card for the matter) that's a huge chunk of rewards your giving up. I don't spend anywhere near what you do every month and i have both.

so many free travels your giving up just because you don't wanna pay an AF or get the CSP/CSR.

also bestbuy (and alot of other stores including electronics) and gas gift cards can be bought with the BCP for 6% CB FYI. so more reason for you to get the BCP as you will quickly max out the max $6k spending from grocery spending plus you still get unlimited 3% CB from gas without the gas gift cards.

TL/DR if you can afford to spend $7k per month you can afford AFs.

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 23:34:08 GMT

@yfan wrote:
For a 7K monthly spending and given the limitations of 5% rotating cards (1500-2000 spend limit per quarter on a given category on which the 5% applies), you may be better off with flat cashback like the Citi Double Cash.

As for the suggestions that you become a churner, that's a way to do things, but do understand that it comes with risks. It's true that it only affects your score relative to how much your AAoA is affected, and it's also true that significantly expanding your overall credit line can even help scores. But, AAoA hit is still a significant risk, as are inquiries. However, the bigger concern is that after you do that for a while. creditors might start to catch up to you and shut down or CLD the cards you really find useful, and even eventually refuse to give you new cards (not just lenders you have already taken advantage of but that pattern in your credit report may cause other creditors to shut their doors to you before you have a chance). Non CC lenders may also take stock of your aggressive credit seeking behavior and decide against making a car loan or a mortgage loan.

Again, all of this depends on your personal profile and not everyone's experience will be the same. Some can get away with quite a lot, and some get the hammer brought on them fairly quickly. Just as you shouldn't assume you are going to be the least fortunate in this department, you should not assume you will be the most fortunate, either.

Yes, all true, but I think it's worth saying that the bonuses from well-chosen "moderate" churning, say two new cards a year, can easily dwarf differences in spending rewards between two cards, i.e. don't sweat the small stuff if you really want cash back

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 00:28:18 GMT

I chuckled when I saw this thread because I was about to post a similar one, so kudos for posting I'm also a fan of maxing my cash rewards, and after I've got that straight, then I'll look into seeing about miles/points and if they make sense.

For us, here's what we're working on (I'm not going to include all categories, just the ones that we focus on):

Gas: Sam's Club MC 5% up to 6k; Discover 5% during reward months, and when those are maxed, then switch to BoA 3.3% (we dump rewards back into a free BoA account for the added .3 rewards) ... I had looked for the Penfed Cash Rewards, but didn't have luck finding it available anymore, bummer.

Dining & Travel: 3% Sam's Club MC ... again, I couldn't find the details about SSFCU Power Travel Rewards, but it seems like another point thing, which makes me feel limited to my spending choices

Discover x2 because they offer 5% rotating, plus they give additional $ bonuses to us for beating spending thresholds (considered chase, but I don't think they do that)

All Else: Alliant 3% (then USAA Liimitless once Alliant wants to charge the AF) ... our monthly spends are higher than typical, it seems ie this month we're PIFing 15k+, so that .5% does make a difference for us ... also, whenever possible i'll use this to purchase a discounted gc through a portal, but sometimes you just can't plan ahead, so it's nice to know that the dining/travel/gas fallback rates are there for us, too.

That pretty much does it for us, so far, really. If anyone can think of better, reward offers I'd love to read, too! Below are my two cents on some of the others we've considered, too.

US Banks Cash+ doesn't seem as rewarding when I consider that it's only $50/year difference, at best, since we would only use it for the 2k/year max ... it just seems like the effort isn't worth it :-/ I dunno, maybe I'm not understanding it fully.

BCP seems enticing only bc of the gift card possibilities, but not when I consider that the everything else cards plus purchasing a discounted gc online through a portal turns out to be much better reward, and we typically purchase the bulk of our groceries at bjs/sams/costco, so the bcp wouldn't work so much for us

we're not really amazon shoppers, but, again, purchasing a discounted gc through a portal on the rare occassion when we need to buy at the least equals 5%, so no need to add that card for us either

JCB Marukai - too many hurdles, including limited spend options and limited credit line

BoA with the extra rewards gets reconsidered every now and then, but the idea of putting that much into an account to earn so little doesn't seem to make sense when compared to the potential cashback potential. As is, we focus on maxing 5+% savings and checkings and anything over gets placed into a self-directed investment vehicle for us to invest in properties, etc.

Hope that helps!

Re: Best for cash back?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 04:01:59 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I chuckled when I saw this thread because I was about to post a similar one, so kudos for posting I'm also a fan of maxing my cash rewards, and after I've got that straight, then I'll look into seeing about miles/points and if they make sense.

For us, here's what we're working on (I'm not going to include all categories, just the ones that we focus on):

Gas: Sam's Club MC 5% up to 6k; Discover 5% during reward months, and when those are maxed, then switch to BoA 3.3% (we dump rewards back into a free BoA account for the added .3 rewards) ... I had looked for the Penfed Cash Rewards, but didn't have luck finding it available anymore, bummer.

Dining & Travel: 3% Sam's Club MC ... again, I couldn't find the details about SSFCU Power Travel Rewards, but it seems like another point thing, which makes me feel limited to my spending choices

Discover x2 because they offer 5% rotating, plus they give additional $ bonuses to us for beating spending thresholds (considered chase, but I don't think they do that)

All Else: Alliant 3% (then USAA Liimitless once Alliant wants to charge the AF) ... our monthly spends are higher than typical, it seems ie this month we're PIFing 15k+, so that .5% does make a difference for us ... also, whenever possible i'll use this to purchase a discounted gc through a portal, but sometimes you just can't plan ahead, so it's nice to know that the dining/travel/gas fallback rates are there for us, too.

That pretty much does it for us, so far, really. If anyone can think of better, reward offers I'd love to read, too! Below are my two cents on some of the others we've considered, too.

US Banks Cash+ doesn't seem as rewarding when I consider that it's only $50/year difference, at best, since we would only use it for the 2k/year max ... it just seems like the effort isn't worth it :-/ I dunno, maybe I'm not understanding it fully.

BCP seems enticing only bc of the gift card possibilities, but not when I consider that the everything else cards plus purchasing a discounted gc online through a portal turns out to be much better reward, and we typically purchase the bulk of our groceries at bjs/sams/costco, so the bcp wouldn't work so much for us

we're not really amazon shoppers, but, again, purchasing a discounted gc through a portal on the rare occassion when we need to buy at the least equals 5%, so no need to add that card for us either

JCB Marukai - too many hurdles, including limited spend options and limited credit line

BoA with the extra rewards gets reconsidered every now and then, but the idea of putting that much into an account to earn so little doesn't seem to make sense when compared to the potential cashback potential. As is, we focus on maxing 5+% savings and checkings and anything over gets placed into a self-directed investment vehicle for us to invest in properties, etc.

Hope that helps!

Good approach!

On the US Bank cash +: it;s $2K per quarter, so $8K per year, giving you $400 if you max out each quarter. But if you are getting 3%/2.5% anyway, the gain is $160-$200 a year, which may not worth the additional card.