topic Re: Amex BCP vs EDP in Credit Cards

Amex BCP vs EDP

MrDisco99 — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:18:31 GMT

So I was looking at the Amex premium revolvers and trying to figure out the pros and cons of each.

Amex BCP:

6% on up to $6K in groceries - one of the best earnings rates on any card

3% on gas and select department stores

1% on everything else

Amex EP (if you meet the transaction count threshold):

4.5 MR points on up to $6K in groceries

3 MR points on gas

1.5 MR points on everything else

Being as they have the same $95 annual fee, it looks like these are seen as comparable products. Also, the EDP is probably the highest earning Amex MR points card when you account for rates and categories. If you have an EDP, you're more likely to use it for 1.5x on non category purchases as well since you're likely focused on collecting MR points, whereas the BCP is more likely to be used in combination with other cash earning cards. This would imply the top earning categories are the ones worth comparing.

Taking all those assumptions into account, the top groceries earning rate would imply MR points are worth about 1.33 cents per point.

However, looking at the redemption rates for MR points for various rewards (gift cards, amextravel.com portal, statement credit, etc.) none of them seem to come close to that. It looks like the most value to be gained from those points comes from transferring to travel partners, which can provide excellent value if you're strategic, but you're also very limited on redemption options that provide maximum value. Some, like HHonors or Delta SkyMiles, are even of questionable transfer value vs. what you'd earn with the BCP in cash.

By comparison Chase UR points are also transferrable to travel partners at similar rates, but even they can be redeemed for cash at 1 cent per point, and through the travel portal at 1.25 or 1.5 cents per point, both being far better redemption value than MR points.

TPG rates MR points at 2cpp, but unless you're specifically flying to Singapore or Hawaii, or on an Etihad A380 the long way around the wrong side of the world, I just don't see the value.

So even though the EDP gives some of the best earning rates for MR points, I wonder if it's ever any better than the cash you get from the BCP card. I guess I'm trying to figure out where the value is in MR points. Is it just flights? If that's the case, then I guess it would make a good companion to the Plat for frequent flyers, but otherwise...?

One way I could see it paying off is as a one time deal where you get the signup bonus for the PRG and EDP and use both until the fee hits. Then you'd have enough points for a pretty awesome free trip. In the long term, though, it seems to me that the BCP provides better value.

Thoughts?

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

wasCB14 — Sun, 09 Jul 2017 20:53:35 GMT

MRs are best used for flights. It's easier to get value from MRs if you fly often, use certain airlines, book premium cabin seats, and/or are flexible about when you fly.

It's quite possible that MRs just don't work for you.

Delta's award availability can be limited, but I like that they don't charge a close-in award booking fee. Other perks like free bags and lounge access can definitely make it more palatable to redeem Delta miles for a lower-than-ideal cpp value.

Circumstances would have to be pretty unusual for a hotel partner to make sense. The SPG ratio is bad, and Hilton points can routinely be purchased cheaply enough that transferring MRs to HH would be a waste.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:54:12 GMT

@wasCB14 wrote:
MRs are best used for flights. It's easier to get value from MRs if you fly often, use certain airlines, book premium cabin seats, and/or are flexible about when you fly.

It's quite possible that MRs just don't work for you.

Delta's award availability can be limited, but I like that they don't charge a close-in award booking fee. Other perks like free bags and lounge access can definitely make it more palatable to redeem Delta miles for a lower-than-ideal cpp value.

Circumstances would have to be pretty unusual for a hotel partner to make sense. The SPG ratio is bad, and Hilton points can routinely be purchased cheaply enough that transferring MRs to HH would be a waste.

Yes. My conclusion has been that the EDP card is a great choice for someone with other Amex MR cards who uses them "correctly" As OP says, TPG rates them at 2c per point, meaning on groceries EDP gives 9%, and on everything else spend 3% (Of course, everyone quibbles with the exact valuation, it depends on too many factors about the exact redemption)

And if you aren't such a person, the EDP makes very little sense. We frequently see complaints here from someone who got the ED without fully understanding the system, and asking if they can change it to a BCE (no!). Getting the EDP for such people would be a worse mistake.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

MrDisco99 — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:39:00 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Yes. My conclusion has been that the EDP card is a great choice for someone with other Amex MR cards who uses them "correctly" As OP says, TPG rates them at 2c per point, meaning on groceries EDP gives 9%, and on everything else spend 3% (Of course, everyone quibbles with the exact valuation, it depends on too many factors about the exact redemption)

That's kinda my question, though. How do they even come up that valuation? It seems to me you have to try really hard to find the specific circumstance where MR points are worth 2 cents each. And if that's the case then they're really not worth that much.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 01:11:18 GMT

@MrDisco99 wrote:
That's kinda my question, though. How do they even come up that valuation? It seems to me you have to try really hard to find the specific circumstance where MR points are worth 2 cents each. And if that's the case then they're really not worth that much.

The Points Guy bases point values on the best deals he can get with that system. Since he travels frequently and on a more flexible basis, there are more options for him to redeem points than there may be for others. It's always best to check which card works best for your spending and style before applying.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 03:03:14 GMT

It's not that tough to get value out of MR points. I transferred points to Delta earlier this year for a trip to Europe this Fall. I got a value of around 2.7-2.8 cents per point. It would have been higher if I'd gone for a premium cabin, but I volunteered to get my friend's ticket for him with my points so he would have more to spend in Europe.

My understanding is that it's much more difficult to get good value if you spend the miles on a domestic Delta ticket. I haven't been with Delta long enough to know for sure if that's true, but I collect UR points, too. I refuse to fly United, so if I'm not spending my UR points on Southwest, I'll probably end up using them on Delta through the Chase travel portal. Sure that's a 1.5 cent per point valuation, but you get miles from airlines when you book through the travel portal and credit towards elite status.

Also, I was at the Delta lounge in Atlanta recently, and they were offering some drinks for $8 or 400 miles, which would be a 2 cent valuation on the points.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

MrDisco99 — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:18:52 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
It's not that though to get value out of MR points. I transferred points to Delta earlier this year for a trip to Europe this Fall. I got a value of around 2.7-2.8 cents per point. It would have been higher if I'd gone for a premium cabin, but I volunteered to get my friend's ticket for him with my points so he would have more to spend in Europe.

I hadn't thought about international flights getting more points value than domestic flights, but that makes a lot of sense. If you don't mind me asking, how many points did you spend on those tickets and where did you fly from/to?

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:28:19 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@MrDisco99 wrote:
That's kinda my question, though. How do they even come up that valuation? It seems to me you have to try really hard to find the specific circumstance where MR points are worth 2 cents each. And if that's the case then they're really not worth that much.
The Points Guy bases point values on the best deals he can get with that system. Since he travels frequently and on a more flexible basis, there are more options for him to redeem points than there may be for others. It's always best to check which card works best for your spending and style before applying.

That's not exactly true. The point value that he assigns is more based on a general redemption of the point vs the 'best deals' he can find. With his expertise and preferred travel he can easily get higher than the value that he assigns to them. It isn't that hard if you fly international in business or first class to get much higher that 2 cents per point. I used some last December for a trip to Australia and redeemed them at a value close to 8 cents per point. It really isn't that hard to get the 2 cents per point. The people that have a hard time doing that (not meaning you) are the ones that use them for gift cards, to pay off charges, etc. In reality those people should focus much more so on cash back cards vs point earning cards like the ones Amex or Chase offers.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

MrDisco99 — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:56:02 GMT

Thanks for that example, Irish. And see that's just it. I see lots of people cite specific cases where points got a really good value. But it almost seems like a lottery where they're only better than cash if you go for this particular set of flights between (premium) city pairs. They're garbage for giftcards, statement credit, shopping/travel portal, etc. They're not that great on partner transfers for hotels or domestic flights. They seem to only really get good value for premium transoceanic flights. For those of us where that kind of trip is a rare event, this point scheme just doesn't seem to offer much value.

I've been doing some research on UR points and Citi TY points as well, and they seem to offer somewhat better options for more general redemption value like 1 cpp cash redemption and better for travel portal redemption.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 03:04:47 GMT

I'm flying from the Midwest to Zurich for 50,000 points per ticket in economy. To be fair, I bought them during a flash sale, but I think it was only a discount of 10,000 miles per ticket, so even without that I would've been over 2 cents per point I believe.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 03:08:44 GMT

At the end of the day though, you're asking the right questions. It's best to figure out what the value is to you before you click "Apply." If you're only buying cheap domestic tickets, and you don't want to learn the ins and outs of airline partnerships (I'm in that camp--I'll take more expensive tickets to avoid the headache) or you don't want to travel, you might be better off with cash back or points that have set travel value (like the CSR or Venture card or something like that).

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:01:17 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
At the end of the day though, you're asking the right questions. It's best to figure out what the value is to you before you click "Apply." If you're only buying cheap domestic tickets, and you don't want to learn the ins and outs of airline partnerships (I'm in that camp--I'll take more expensive tickets to avoid the headache) or you don't want to travel, you might be better off with cash back or points that have set travel value (like the CSR or Venture card or something like that).

There used to be times where you can also get good value on domestic American flights by transferring MR to Avios and using them. I think it is hardner now to get good value doing this, but havent checked recently.

But in general I would say point systems aren't great except for international (esp premium) or high cost hotel redemptions. So even though UR do have a 1c cash value, the FU is just a 1.5% card viewed that way, and you can easily do better, and the Freedom is 1% outside of its rotating, capped, 5%. And the CSP is, like say the Venture/Arrival, a card with a large bonus and waived first year AF, but unlike them, is a 2% in only certain categories (but eaier to redeem at full value)

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

MrDisco99 — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:12:20 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm flying from the Midwest to Zurich for 50,000 points per ticket in economy. To be fair, I bought them during a flash sale, but I think it was only a discount of 10,000 miles per ticket, so even without that I would've been over 2 cents per point I believe.

That's a pretty good deal. Congrats!

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:27:07 GMT

@MrDisco99

Using points, whether it be American Express MR or Chase UR points to book award travel can take a lot of time and some expertise to take full advantage of their value. Most people make the mistake of assuming that the airline partners listed as transfer partners are your only option for using those points. However, in almost all cases and with the exception of a few airlines like Southwest, the airlines belong to a partnership like OneWorld or Star Alliance and you can book flights on those airlines as well via the award site of the named partner. You also have to be somewhat flexible in your travel plans and usually you have to plan way ahead of time. There are a lot of sites out there like FlyerTalk, ThePointsGuy and others that can be extremely informative in booking award flights. This is why I tell people that they need to research the reward programs prior to applying for a particular credit card. I can't tell you how many posters here that applied for the 100K bonus points offer for the American Express Platinum and then came here and posted that the points were useless to them (other than buying gift cards) or that they had no idea what the MR reward program was even about.

Travel credit cards and points can can be extremely valuable. For example, just using The Points guy value for various programs I have well over $40K in award travel available. In reality it's much higher than that because I know that I can redeem most of those points for far better value than what he assigns to them.

Nonetheless most people here here will discover that various cashback cards used wisely are a much better fit for them based on their spending habits and lifestyle.

Its good that you're researching these cards before applying for them. I wish more did so.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:41:13 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@MrDisco99 wrote:
That's kinda my question, though. How do they even come up that valuation? It seems to me you have to try really hard to find the specific circumstance where MR points are worth 2 cents each. And if that's the case then they're really not worth that much.
The Points Guy bases point values on the best deals he can get with that system. Since he travels frequently and on a more flexible basis, there are more options for him to redeem points than there may be for others. It's always best to check which card works best for your spending and style before applying.
That's not exactly true. The point value that he assigns is more based on a general redemption of the point vs the 'best deals' he can find. With his expertise and preferred travel he can easily get higher than the value that he assigns to them. It isn't that hard if you fly international in business or first class to get much higher that 2 cents per point. I used some last December for a trip to Australia and redeemed them at a value close to 8 cents per point. It really isn't that hard to get the 2 cents per point. The people that have a hard time doing that (not meaning you) are the ones that use them for gift cards, to pay off charges, etc. In reality those people should focus much more so on cash back cards vs point earning cards like the ones Amex or Chase offers.

Looking at his discussion it seems like it is best case scenario. Some of the things he suggest aren't even that great. Like transfer to Ethiad and use to get American Airlines flight to Europe for 50k miles. Ok that isn't close to 2x points. And seems like a ton of hassle. I don't want to go to the trouble of doing all that. I will probably just get a 500 dollar Hyatt gift card with my 50000 sign up points on my Gold Preferred. So 1 cent per point. Also with 200 dollar in incidental rebates that is 700 dollars in value for a card in the first year. Where would you get that in cash back card?

Also it seems to me if you want the Amex points the Gold Preferred is a much better deal than the charge cards. 50k sign up vs 15k at most and you get 2x on Groceries, Gas, and Restaurants with no limits.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:32:55 GMT

@MrDisco99 wrote:
Thanks for that example, Irish. And see that's just it. I see lots of people cite specific cases where points got a really good value. But it almost seems like a lottery where they're only better than cash if you go for this particular set of flights between (premium) city pairs. They're garbage for giftcards, statement credit, shopping/travel portal, etc. They're not that great on partner transfers for hotels or domestic flights. They seem to only really get good value for premium transoceanic flights. For those of us where that kind of trip is a rare event, this point scheme just doesn't seem to offer much value.

I've been doing some research on UR points and Citi TY points as well, and they seem to offer somewhat better options for more general redemption value like 1 cpp cash redemption and better for travel portal redemption.

If you want easy use points get the Barclay Arrival Plus you can use them as a credit for any travel related charge on your card. They have 50k sign up bonus and 2x everything.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:34:22 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm flying from the Midwest to Zurich for 50,000 points per ticket in economy. To be fair, I bought them during a flash sale, but I think it was only a discount of 10,000 miles per ticket, so even without that I would've been over 2 cents per point I believe.

So you did this through the Amex Travel site or is this some type of thing where you had to transfer to an airline and then use on another airline.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 15:17:26 GMT

Looking at the points guy website seems like he is misleading people. He mentions flight costs that might be that high if you booked the day before the flight. For example he states PHL to Frankfurt is 1622 dollars in economy during high season. I saw a lot of fares from BWI to Franfurt for 500 dollars during high season. So he states what a great deal it is to use 43k amex points with 125 dollars. That is less than a cent per mile in my calculations. But he gives it some crazy value. Like 4.4 cents per mile.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 15:20:34 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
It's not that tough to get value out of MR points. I transferred points to Delta earlier this year for a trip to Europe this Fall. I got a value of around 2.7-2.8 cents per point. It would have been higher if I'd gone for a premium cabin, but I volunteered to get my friend's ticket for him with my points so he would have more to spend in Europe.

My understanding is that it's much more difficult to get good value if you spend the miles on a domestic Delta ticket. I haven't been with Delta long enough to know for sure if that's true, but I collect UR points, too. I refuse to fly United, so if I'm not spending my UR points on Southwest, I'll probably end up using them on Delta through the Chase travel portal. Sure that's a 1.5 cent per point valuation, but you get miles from airlines when you book through the travel portal and credit towards elite status.

Also, I was at the Delta lounge in Atlanta recently, and they were offering some drinks for $8 or 400 miles, which would be a 2 cent valuation on the points.

You have to pay for drinks in the airline lounges? Why do people want to get lounge access if drinks cost money there? I assumed the drinks and food were free.

Re: Amex BCP vs EDP

wasCB14 — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:34:56 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
It's not that tough to get value out of MR points. I transferred points to Delta earlier this year for a trip to Europe this Fall. I got a value of around 2.7-2.8 cents per point. It would have been higher if I'd gone for a premium cabin, but I volunteered to get my friend's ticket for him with my points so he would have more to spend in Europe.

My understanding is that it's much more difficult to get good value if you spend the miles on a domestic Delta ticket. I haven't been with Delta long enough to know for sure if that's true, but I collect UR points, too. I refuse to fly United, so if I'm not spending my UR points on Southwest, I'll probably end up using them on Delta through the Chase travel portal. Sure that's a 1.5 cent per point valuation, but you get miles from airlines when you book through the travel portal and credit towards elite status.

Also, I was at the Delta lounge in Atlanta recently, and they were offering some drinks for $8 or 400 miles, which would be a 2 cent valuation on the points.

You have to pay for drinks in the airline lounges? Why do people want to get lounge access if drinks cost money there? I assumed the drinks and food were free.

You have to pay for some drinks (in addition to a tip, which is expected on all drinks):

Delta: Some basic beer, wine, and spirits are free. Others cost money. The free food selection is good in my experience of visiting two of their best locations. Not sure if they have a premium food menu.

Admirals: Some wine is free, some wine costs money. Not sure beyond that. Snacks and soups are free. Sandwiches cost money.

Centurion: Drinks that would not be complimentary at other places are complimentary. Supposedly some even more expensive stuff is available if you identify yourself as a Centurion customer, but I've not spent enough time at the bar to see this happen. The food is free and excellent.