topic Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program in Credit Cards

Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:05:29 GMT

Starting this thread because I don't want to derail jfriend's post about the Citi Prestige offer where this has been brought up.

The DoctorofCredit and others are reporting that Chase has been sending out surveys to cardholders asking their opinions about potential changes. None of the choices are good and mostly affects the ability to transfer from the cashback cards like the two Freedoms to the UR earning cards like the CSP and CSR. If Chase is doing these surveys I'd be willing to bet that some change is coming before too long. For those that use multiple Chase cards to earn UR points I'd encourage you to transfer them from your Freedom cards to the CSR or CSP now and often.

http://www.doctorofcredit.com/chase-sends-survey-regarding-possible-changes-transferring-chase-ur-points-1-5%C2%A2-travel-redemptions/

Re: Citi Prestige 75k after $7.5k spend starting 7/23

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:08:05 GMT

@MrDisco99 wrote:
All good points jfriend33. However none of that helps me with that spend requirement.

And where did you hear that Chase rumor? You're the only one I've seen mention it.

Horrible changes if they make them . Though I have to say that Chase has spoiled us with the ability to transfer from cashback cards like the two Freedom cards to points earning cards like the CSP and CSR. No other creditor does that.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

MrDisco99 — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:18:06 GMT

This is literally the primary reason everyone wants Chase cards. Every travel hack YouTube video says to get the trifecta. Getting rid of that benefit would be shocking.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:05:37 GMT

That'd unquestionably change my usage of the Freedom card(s). It is the entire reason I drive so much of our monthly spend through them.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

adelphi_sky — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:08:28 GMT

Hmmm. I was going to PC from the slate to the Freedom Unlimited for this very reason. But if they are going to change the UR program, then I might as well get rid of the Slate for good.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

simplynoir — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:13:00 GMT

If/when they do this my interest in Chase will drop a lot. Been waiting til the end of the year where I can meet the spending bonuses on the both the CSP and CSR so when they got met I would PC the CSP to CFU and ride out the CSR the first year to see if I wanted to keep the card. But this changes things to where if I should even bother.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

yfan — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:27:03 GMT

All of the options presented in the DOC story point towards Chase's intention to do one thing: disallow the redemption of Cash back rewards at a value higher than the actual cash back. The first two options are so on their face. The third option would be allowing transfer at 2/3 value. I'm sure not coincidentally, 2/3 * 1.5 = 1.

I can't say I blame Chase for doing this. Cashback products may not have been intended for the benefits of AF based UR cards to begin with, and now enough people have taken advantage of it that Chase is looking to explicitly change the rules. As for whether they will lose business or customers if they do this, I think Chase is betting that the customers they would lose are the ones costing them the most in the current transfer system, and they are happy to rid themselves of those customers.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:31:07 GMT

@MrDisco99 wrote:
This is literally the primary reason everyone wants Chase cards. Every travel hack YouTube video says to get the trifecta. Getting rid of that benefit would be shocking.

If Chase is actually planning to do this, the bolded is probably a major reason why. I doubt they particularly like their cards being manipulated to hoover up rewards points. "Travel hacks" people may not like it if this happens, but those cards are Chase's to do with as they deem best.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

adelphi_sky — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:47:39 GMT

@yfan wrote:
All of the options presented in the DOC story point towards Chase's intention to do one thing: disallow the redemption of Cash back rewards at a value higher than the actual cash back. The first two options are so on their face. The third option would be allowing transfer at 2/3 value. I'm sure not coincidentally, 2/3 * 1.5 = 1.

I can't say I blame Chase for doing this. Cashback products may not have been intended for the benefits of AF based UR cards to begin with, and now enough people have taken advantage of it that Chase is looking to explicitly change the rules. As for whether they will lose business or customers if they do this, I think Chase is betting that the customers they would lose are the ones costing them the most in the current transfer system, and they are happy to rid themselves of those customers.

I think Chase could also cut off their nose to spite their face. The CSR was driven by these same users. The whole UR program was also a winner even before the CSR came on the scene. You change that, you run the risk of losing a large population that you just won over. Remember, this generation isn't as brand loyal as their parents. They will respond negatively because there ARE other options out there. They realize that banks aren't necessarily for their best interest and if the benefits stop, they move on. Look at how many people started jumping ship from the AMEX Platinum until Amex was forced to up its game? Now is not the time to start removing benefits just as other card issuers are upping their game to better compete. Again, Chase runs the risk of massive customer loss if this change goes bad. The current UR program made the $450 AF for the CSR worth it. Remove the one thing that makes having the CSR worth it, and you reverse the popularity you created last year.

If I were Chase, I would have to weigh the potential losses from changing the UR program against current "losses" if there are any. Losing a guaranteed $450 revenue per card holder could be worse if there is a mass exodus. The online travel card community is even larger and stronger as a customer base than it ever was and credit card companies have learned to listen to those on Reddit and travel hack sites. It's up to us to complain and threaten to leave if we want Chase to keep the UR program as is.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

mongstradamus — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:20:37 GMT

This is very concerning news I was actually about to downgrade my ink plus to ink cash, lucky I didn't or i would have lost a lot of potential points there. I guess I should think about transferring my freedom UR to my CSR now.

Edit: I really have to think about UR program in general if I may be want to just concentrate on accuruig MR instead. With UAL points nerf, well its a nerf to me because i usually use them to fly to asia and now they are increasing amount of points reuqred again. Its not neccesarily an UR nerf but it makes using UR a lot more difficult for me. Who knows maybe will just use UR for hyatt now instead. I really should do more research on Plat vs CSR before this change goes into affect

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

UpperNwGuy — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:10:11 GMT

It surprises me that Chase, in its zeal to reduce costs, has chosen to devalue a benefit that retains the loyalty of current cardholders, yet they show no sign of reducing the huge signup bonuses for new cardholders. This tells me that they value new customers over the current ones. They can't complain about churning if their own rewards structure encourages churning.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

yfan — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:30:04 GMT

@adelphi_sky wrote:
I think Chase could also cut off their nose to spite their face. The CSR was driven by these same users. The whole UR program was also a winner even before the CSR came on the scene. You change that, you run the risk of losing a large population that you just won over.

Oh, I have no doubt that would run the risk of losing a large population they just won over, insofar as the "credit card travel hacker" population is large. My point is that they wouldn't mind losing that population because it is a population, they have decided, is costing them too much. I doubt Chase ever intended to be bankrolling high-end vacation packages for relatively new customers who have used their more expensive products for only a short period of time.

@adelphi_sky wrote:
Remember, this generation isn't as brand loyal as their parents. They will respond negatively because there ARE other options out there. They realize that banks aren't necessarily for their best interest and if the benefits stop, they move on. Look at how many people started jumping ship from the AMEX Platinum until Amex was forced to up its game? Now is not the time to start removing benefits just as other card issuers are upping their game to better compete. Again, Chase runs the risk of massive customer loss if this change goes bad. The current UR program made the $450 AF for the CSR worth it. Remove the one thing that makes having the CSR worth it, and you reverse the popularity you created last year.

Yup, and once again my point is that the popularity they created last year is what Chase would like to reverse, at least among "travel hackers." Chase created the CSR to compete with the Amex Platinum, not to fund vacation packages for customers who are admittedly not loyal. They may have succeeded a bit too much and that success is costing them more than they would like.

You are also absolutely right that there ARE other options people can go to, but as Irish noted at the beginning of this thread, none of them provide this type of... shall we say... game-a-bility with their lineups. Chase is calculating, correctly, that this specific advantage will not be available anywhere else their customers can move to.

The only thing I would disagree with you about is that Chase runs the risk of "massive customer loss". Travel hackers may be 'massive' enough to cost Chase enough to make them consider these changes, but I doubt they are numerous enough to cost Chase "massive" loss in total number of customers they serve. I do think people overestimate their power as the "online travel [hacking] community."

At the end of the day, this is not about loyalty. No one should expect it to be. Not Chase, and not consumers. It's about competition. Chase is merely removing a competitive advantage no one else in the market provides and one it sees as costing too much, and making the bet that there are still enough remaining advantages it will fish out the travel hackers without much of a "mass exodus."

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

yfan — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:29:25 GMT

@UpperNwGuy wrote:
It surprises me that Chase, in its zeal to reduce costs, has chosen to devalue a benefit that retains the loyalty of current cardholders, yet they show no sign of reducing the huge signup bonuses for new cardholders. This tells me that they value new customers over the current ones.

Sure. And I know plenty of people just here who value their new cards over their old cards the exact same way - in a rush to earn bonuses. What's good for the goose and all that...

@UpperNwGuy wrote:
They can't complain about churning if their own rewards structure encourages churning.

They're not complaining. They are changing the rewards structure so that it no longer encourages churning as much.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

iced — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:51:16 GMT

@yfan wrote:
@adelphi_sky wrote:
I think Chase could also cut off their nose to spite their face. The CSR was driven by these same users. The whole UR program was also a winner even before the CSR came on the scene. You change that, you run the risk of losing a large population that you just won over.
Oh, I have no doubt that would run the risk of losing a large population they just won over, insofar as the "credit card travel hacker" population is large. My point is that they wouldn't mind losing that population because it is a population, they have decided, is costing them too much. I doubt Chase ever intended to be bankrolling high-end vacation packages for relatively new customers who have used their more expensive products for only a short period of time.

@adelphi_sky wrote:
Remember, this generation isn't as brand loyal as their parents. They will respond negatively because there ARE other options out there. They realize that banks aren't necessarily for their best interest and if the benefits stop, they move on. Look at how many people started jumping ship from the AMEX Platinum until Amex was forced to up its game? Now is not the time to start removing benefits just as other card issuers are upping their game to better compete. Again, Chase runs the risk of massive customer loss if this change goes bad. The current UR program made the $450 AF for the CSR worth it. Remove the one thing that makes having the CSR worth it, and you reverse the popularity you created last year.
Yup, and once again my point is that the popularity they created last year is what Chase would like to reverse, at least among "travel hackers." Chase created the CSR to compete with the Amex Platinum, not to fund vacation packages for customers who are admittedly not loyal. They may have succeeded a bit too much and that success is costing them more than they would like.

You are also absolutely right that there ARE other options people can go to, but as Irish noted at the beginning of this thread, none of them provide this type of... shall we say... game-a-bility with their lineups. Chase is calculating, correctly, that this specific advantage will not be available anywhere else their customers can move to.

The only thing I would disagree with you about is that Chase runs the risk of "massive customer loss". Travel hackers may be 'massive' enough to cost Chase enough to make them consider these changes, but I doubt they are numerous enough to cost Chase "massive" loss in total number of customers they serve. I do think people overestimate their power as the "online travel [hacking] community."

At the end of the day, this is not about loyalty. No one should expect it to be. Not Chase, and not consumers. It's about competition. Chase is merely removing a competitive advantage no one else in the market provides and one it sees as costing too much, and making the bet that there are still enough remaining advantages it will fish out the travel hackers without much of a "mass exodus."

This post does a good job of summing up my perspective on this. There are many users of the CSR (and CSP) who are heavily skewed toward dining/travel spend, and this change would be marginal or even a non-issue for these users. More importantly, those users tend to be the ones who are most profitable to Chase, and those are the users Chase really wants to retain.

I see what Chase is doing here not unlike what Delta and United (and now AA) did a few years ago with the great PQD sweep aka "you must now earn status by actually spending money rather than just flying." There was an uproar then, mostly among the mileage runners, who suddenly saw their ability to earn 1K or Medallion status by booking a couple $500 tickets with ridiculous routings die. Those programs are still alive and well today, the upper tiers of the programs are just as good or better, and they're making more money in the process.

Chase will go through a similar cleansing if they implement this, but they're seeing it as the smart long-term move.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

adelphi_sky — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:53:57 GMT

@yfan wrote:
@adelphi_sky wrote:
I think Chase could also cut off their nose to spite their face. The CSR was driven by these same users. The whole UR program was also a winner even before the CSR came on the scene. You change that, you run the risk of losing a large population that you just won over.
Oh, I have no doubt that would run the risk of losing a large population they just won over, insofar as the "credit card travel hacker" population is large. My point is that they wouldn't mind losing that population because it is a population, they have decided, is costing them too much. I doubt Chase ever intended to be bankrolling high-end vacation packages for relatively new customers who have used their more expensive products for only a short period of time.

@adelphi_sky wrote:
Remember, this generation isn't as brand loyal as their parents. They will respond negatively because there ARE other options out there. They realize that banks aren't necessarily for their best interest and if the benefits stop, they move on. Look at how many people started jumping ship from the AMEX Platinum until Amex was forced to up its game? Now is not the time to start removing benefits just as other card issuers are upping their game to better compete. Again, Chase runs the risk of massive customer loss if this change goes bad. The current UR program made the $450 AF for the CSR worth it. Remove the one thing that makes having the CSR worth it, and you reverse the popularity you created last year.
Yup, and once again my point is that the popularity they created last year is what Chase would like to reverse, at least among "travel hackers." Chase created the CSR to compete with the Amex Platinum, not to fund vacation packages for customers who are admittedly not loyal. They may have succeeded a bit too much and that success is costing them more than they would like.

You are also absolutely right that there ARE other options people can go to, but as Irish noted at the beginning of this thread, none of them provide this type of... shall we say... game-a-bility with their lineups. Chase is calculating, correctly, that this specific advantage will not be available anywhere else their customers can move to.

The only thing I would disagree with you about is that Chase runs the risk of "massive customer loss". Travel hackers may be 'massive' enough to cost Chase enough to make them consider these changes, but I doubt they are numerous enough to cost Chase "massive" loss in total number of customers they serve. I do think people overestimate their power as the "online travel [hacking] community."

At the end of the day, this is not about loyalty. No one should expect it to be. Not Chase, and not consumers. It's about competition. Chase is merely removing a competitive advantage no one else in the market provides and one it sees as costing too much, and making the bet that there are still enough remaining advantages it will fish out the travel hackers without much of a "mass exodus."

I hope it doesn't become a race to the bottom where customers are offered less and less and have to choose between increasingly suckier offers and programs.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:54:26 GMT

@yfan wrote:
@UpperNwGuy wrote:
It surprises me that Chase, in its zeal to reduce costs, has chosen to devalue a benefit that retains the loyalty of current cardholders, yet they show no sign of reducing the huge signup bonuses for new cardholders. This tells me that they value new customers over the current ones.
Sure. And I know plenty of people just here who value their new cards over their old cards the exact same way - in a rush to earn bonuses. What's good for the goose and all that...

@UpperNwGuy wrote:
They can't complain about churning if their own rewards structure encourages churning.
They're not complaining. They are changing the rewards structure so that it no longer encourages churning as much.

Why would this discourage churnig? How much are people making with the current rewards structure? It seems to me that something like the 60,000 point Southwest bonus is going to make more money for the customer than transferring points around and paying annual big annual fees.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

driftless — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:29:58 GMT

We currently transfer my Freedom's UR points plus my wife's CSP and Freedom's point to my CSR. Neither of us have the Trifecta. We both use our Freedom's mainly for the 5X categories. If Chase does go through with this rumored change I will just close my Freedom and move the CL over to my CSR.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

yfan — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:36:26 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Why would this discourage churnig? How much are people making with the current rewards structure? It seems to me that something like the 60,000 point Southwest bonus is going to make more money for the customer than transferring points around and paying annual big annual fees.

To the extent that people want the Freedom and Freedom Unlimited only to transfer their bonuses to the CSR, this change would make that unpalatable, making those people think twice about applying for those cards.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

CreditCuriosity — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:51:02 GMT

Yes these are very bad changes if they do happen...FU becomes useless, Freedom still have a bit of relevance.. Mise well just get rid of the FU as many many other 1.5% if not 2%+ cards out there without AF's.

Re: Possible changes coming to the Chase UR program

Skymogul — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:56:34 GMT

Without the Trifecta, the math for CSR will fall apart on a lot of spending profiles. It basically becomes an FU (1.5x) for non-travel/dining spend, but then only if you redeem through the portal. Personally I'd rather just get the 1.5x on everything without portal redeems.

Cap One Trifecta (QS, Premier Dining and Venture) is looking better every day.