topic Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC? in Credit Cards

Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

LooksAreDeceiving — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 16:34:48 GMT

Hello all,

I'm looking at possibly apping for a 2% card soon, and was hoping to get some opinions.

My current choices are between the Citibank DC and Paypal MC. As of now, I would go with the Paypal due to the flat 2% (even though I plan on PIF). Based on my limited research, it seems redemption with the PP is slightly more cumbersome, but doesn't seem like much of an issue (I currently have a PP acount that I use infrequently).

I was just interested in any insights the group may have (or any other 2% card suggestions).

Thanks.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 16:55:54 GMT

@LooksAreDeceiving wrote:
Hello all,
I'm looking at possibly apping for a 2% card soon, and was hoping to get some opinions.

My current choices are between the Citibank DC and Paypal MC. As of now, I would go with the Paypal due to the flat 2% (even though I plan on PIF). Based on my limited research, it seems redemption with the PP is slightly more cumbersome, but doesn't seem like much of an issue (I currently have a PP acount that I use infrequently).

I was just interested in any insights the group may have (or any other 2% card suggestions).

Thanks.

IMO, Paypal wins on

1) flat 2% rather than 1+1

2) no FTF

3) no min redemption

For me, these outweigh other issues such as

a) extra steps. (Need reward transferred to Paypal and then on if needed)

b) have to access through Paypal website

c) no purchase notifications (never use these with any card)

But your weighing of factors may differ

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 17:11:23 GMT

I enjoy using my PPMC and have zero issues redeeming CB. If you PIF, this would be an ideal card. I have no experience with Citi's DC.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

digitek — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 17:17:21 GMT

Hey Looks,

Glad to hear you did a little research and have an idea of what you are looking at. They are both OK cards, main issue with DC is that it just lost a lot of it's benefits and has a FTF. Issue with Paypal MC is that it is backed by Synchrony and fraud/dispute/customer service with them can be spotty.

Other 2% cards of notable interest:

Fidelity Visa - straight 2%, backed by Elan, cashback only deposited into a Fideltiy account

Amex Blue Business Plus - x2 MR on anything up to $50k per year, business card so not on personal report, Amex not accepted everywhere

Alliant Platinum Rewards Visa - x2 points that are worth one cent each, CU is pretty conservative

Penfed PowerCash Rewards Visa - 2% if you keep some money in their checking account

SDFCU Premium Cashback+ - 2% Visa, CU is really conservative and customer service is slow, but good

Goodluck with whatever you go with. While not that big of a deal, the SUB can make a bit of a difference. For example the Amex BBP has no SUB at all while the SDFCU card has a $200 SUB. Don't let it make your decision for you, think about long term viability of the card, but if you are on the fence, it can help sway one way or the other.

With Amex BBP you get MR which can be worth more or less depending on how you redeem. If you can get 1.2 cent per MR with a decent redemption (those are easy and don't require business/first class seats) then the BBP was earning you a cashback rate roughly equal to 2.4%.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

kdm31091 — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 17:59:38 GMT

The problem with ignoring the bonus is that it does matter for your calculation. A 1.5 percent card with a bonus will outperform a DC or PayPal card with no bonus for many thousands of dollars in spend.

All of the 2 percent cards have catches and quirks. You just have to decide what works for you.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

vic6string — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 19:15:02 GMT

I have a feeling we will be seeing some more 2% cards in the very near future. We have already seen targeted invites to the Chase Freedom unlimited with 4% for first year, which I think is a precursor to moving that card from 1.5 to 2%. If that happens, how long before Capital One and the others follow suit? I think next year we will see a few 2% cards from the big players, and we will see most subs go from the $xxx for $xxxx spend in x months to double your rewards for the first year.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 19:52:02 GMT

@vic6string wrote:
I have a feeling we will be seeing some more 2% cards in the very near future. We have already seen targeted invites to the Chase Freedom unlimited with 4% for first year, which I think is a precursor to moving that card from 1.5 to 2%.

Why do you think that? IMO, it's just a spend dependent SUB, and we have seen lots of cards increase SUBs from time to time without changing the reward structure outside the promo.

With URs, going to 2% might be too generous. On the business side, I guess that they could want to compete with the 2MR Amex card, but that's not the CFU!

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

KJinNC — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 20:01:50 GMT

I am interested in this same choice between Citi DC and Paypal MC, though I'm not in position to be approved for either yet. By the time I am, I expect my secured Citi Diamond to be PCable to a DC, so that will probably make my decision for me.

I'm not concerned about losing 1% of 1%, so the flat 2% thing doesn't seem important to me ... may change my mind at some point. I would rather deal with Citi than with Sync. Otherwise, seems like the same thing with minor pros and cons either direction.

The way Paypal promotes their card bothers me. They email everyone with a Paypal account with text that makes a lot of people think they are pretty certain to get the card if they apply, leading to a lot of wasted hard pulls and rejections. They aren't lying but IMO if they want to maintain goodwill with their existing customers, they should be more selective sending that type of email.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Aim_High — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 20:20:42 GMT

@kdm31091 wrote: " .... All of the 2 percent cards have catches and quirks."

+++1 ... Bravo!! One of the only times I've seen criticism of the available 2% options. I don't have a 2%-on-everything pure cash back card. I've been evaluating the 2% options and frustrated with the lack of a clear winner. If you study the fine print and read the user reviews, all of them have limitations and quirks.

Give me an account that has ALL of these features. There are none that I have found.

- NO minimum redemptions (which sets you up to lose a % of your savings).

*$50 (5000 pts) Fidelity; $25 DC; Alliant $20; SDFCU+PenFed are lowest at $5 minimum IIRC

*Nobody redeems starting at a penny (Like cards from Capital One, Bank of America, Discover, etc.)

- NO requirement to maintain a separate bank, investment (Fidelity or Bank of America), or PayPal account.

- NO loss of 2% value when redeemed for CASH (Fidelity = only 1% if cashed out.)

- NO loss of 1% when you pay with your points instead of cash-out (DC)

- NO loss of points as long as account is open and in good standing.

*DC = 12 months activity limit; some others have longer limits.

- NO Foreign Transaction Fees

- NO charge for paper statements (PenFed = $1 a month)

- Easy access to account info; charges; notifications via website or app

*PPMC has cumbersome interface reviews

- Good to Excellent Customer service and fraud prevention reviews

(*I've seen sketchy ones from several of the 2% lenders.)

I am still considering them but wish there was a clear winner.

*This list does not consider any cards that give Points (MR,UR, etc) or Miles since they are not CASH into my account or statement credit and if they even have a cash-out option do not pay at a 2% cash rate.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Aim_High — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 20:39:00 GMT

@digitek wrote:

Amex Blue Business Plus - x2 MR on anything up to $50k per year ... With Amex BBP you get MR which can be worth more or less depending on how you redeem.

@digitek- good overall summary and review of some of the available cash-back options.

However, I believe that points and miles cards are best left out of the discussion when cash-back cards are considered. As you pointed out, they may pay out much better (or much less) in "value" for a given cardholder. Many people who ask about 'cash-back' cards are only looking for either cold, hard cash refunded to an account or credited to a statement at a no-nonsense penny-a-point.

When MR and UR points or Bank of America Premium Rewards or Venture Miles or whatever is brought into the discussion, that just unnecessarily complicates the issue for those who are looking for CASH back options. While MR points can be valuable, when redeemed for cash credit, they are only worth .006 per point which is a pitiful 1.2% when redeemed for cash-out. While I may be able to redeem for 2.25% in travel with my CFU and CSR on the UR portal, I can't redeem for 2.25% cash money there, so I don't bring that up. Limiting the discussion to the cards that pay at least 2% cash (of which there are several options already) focuses the on that category alone.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 20:54:01 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
@kdm31091 wrote:   " .... All of the 2 percent cards have catches and quirks."

Give me an account that has ALL of these features. There are none that I have found.

- NO minimum redemptions (which sets you up to lose a % of your savings).
        *$50 (5000 pts) Fidelity; $25 DC; Alliant $20; SDFCU+PenFed are lowest at $5 minimum IIRC
        *Nobody redeems starting at a penny (Like cards from Capital One, Bank of America, Discover, etc.)
Paypal has no min redemption, you can redeem a penny
- NO loss of 1% when you pay with your points instead of cash-out (DC)
It's more 0.02%, not really an issue (and you can avoid it easily)

And the other thing to consider is that the 2% cards earn 33% more than a 1.5% card, so assuming that there is a 1.5% card that meets AIM_High's definition of ideal, are the quirks of the 2% ones so bad that it is worth giving up the extra earn?

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

creditfan — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:28:50 GMT

another 2% card

rbfcu

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Aim_High — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:50:40 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Paypal has no min redemption, you can redeem a penny
- NO loss of 1% when you pay with your points instead of cash-out (DC)
It's more 0.02%, not really an issue (and you can avoid it easily)

And the other thing to consider is that the 2% cards earn 33% more than a 1.5% card, so assuming that there is a 1.5% card that meets AIM_High's definition of ideal, are the quirks of the 2% ones so bad that it is worth giving up the extra earn?

Thanks the clarification @longtimelurker. I was shooting from the hip comparing and contrasting and missed that PayPal does indeed redeem a penny.

I agree that the .002% on Citi is a trivial point - except that they are purposefully counting on the average person to not think about giving up that percentage and not having to pay the full 2% when redeemed for statement credit. It's purposefully misleading, which makes me not want to trust Citi in general. And that is just one of the many loopholes they have in their legalese. Plus, if it's "easily avoided", it means it is something I must be mindful of and aware of how I am redeeming my cash-back or else I don't get full value. Why do they have to make it difficult? Because they want to brag they pay 2% but they don't always really pay 2% when it comes down to it, unless you are the rare customer who follows all the rules.

However, those are minutia compared to my overall point which was that nobody, including PayPal MC or Citi DC, offers ALL of those features while many other lower-paying cash back cards do. So why is that the case? None of the 2% cards are as easy or hassle-free as some of the lower-paying cards because the lenders have complicated the rules to increase their odds of not having to actually pay the full 2%. It's all a big game.

Is it worth giving up the extra earn? Probably not, for someone who is willing to follow the rules or extra complications I mentioned above.

But the bigger question is whether we are actually getting the full 2% when the dust clears? I just think it is important that everyone knows what they are getting into and understands that they may not get the advertised rate on a 2% card if they get tripped up by the terms and conditions. For all their effort, they could end up getting closer to the 1.5% (or less) than they could get with a basic cash-back card like Quicksilver or Freedom Unlimited.

Of course, none of this even counts the masses who apply for cash-back cards and then don't pay off balances in full every month. Interest rates are higher on these cards which quickly eats up the savings for those who even occassionally float a balance. They aren't for everybody but unfortunately some people don't do their homework and don't understand what they are getting into.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Aim_High — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:48:32 GMT

@creditfan wrote:
another 2% card
rbfcu

Yes, and it's one I don't see mentioned much.

Like several of the others, you must be a member and have accounts with them.

They are probably best for someone who is willing to do their banking there.

Do you have this card? I would be interested in comments since I rarely hear about it.

*Randolph-Brooks Federal Credit Union

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Andypanda — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:58:30 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Paypal has no min redemption, you can redeem a penny
- NO loss of 1% when you pay with your points instead of cash-out (DC)
It's more 0.02%, not really an issue (and you can avoid it easily)

And the other thing to consider is that the 2% cards earn 33% more than a 1.5% card, so assuming that there is a 1.5% card that meets AIM_High's definition of ideal, are the quirks of the 2% ones so bad that it is worth giving up the extra earn?
Thanks the clarification @longtimelurker. I was shooting from the hip comparing and contrasting and missed that PayPal does indeed redeem a penny.

I agree that the .002% on Citi is a trivial point - except that they are purposefully counting on the average person to not think about giving up that percentage and not having to pay the full 2% when redeemed for statement credit. It's purposefully misleading, which makes me not want to trust Citi in general. And that is just one of the many loopholes they have in their legalese. Plus, if it's "easily avoided", it means it is something I must be mindful of and aware of how I am redeeming my cash-back or else I don't get full value. Why do they have to make it difficult? Because they want to brag they pay 2% but they don't always really pay 2% when it comes down to it, unless you are the rare customer who follows all the rules.

However, those are minutia compared to my overall point which was that nobody, including PayPal MC or Citi DC, offers ALL of those features while many other lower-paying cash back cards do. So why is that the case? None of the 2% cards are as easy or hassle-free as some of the lower-paying cards because the lenders have complicated the rules to increase their odds of not having to actually pay the full 2%. It's all a big game.

Is it worth giving up the extra earn? Probably not, for someone who is willing to follow the rules or extra complications I mentioned above.

But the bigger question is whether we are actually getting the full 2% when the dust clears? I just think it is important that everyone knows what they are getting into and understands that they may not get the advertised rate on a 2% card if they get tripped up by the terms and conditions. For all their effort, they could end up getting closer to the 1.5% (or less) than they could get with a basic cash-back card like Quicksilver or Freedom Unlimited.

Of course, none of this even counts the masses who apply for cash-back cards and then don't pay off balances in full every month. Interest rates are higher on these cards which quickly eats up the savings for those who even occassionally float a balance. They aren't for everybody but unfortunately some people don't do their homework and don't understand what they are getting into.

Even if one gets 1.98% back instead Of the full 2% back it is still .48% more than a 1.5% card

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Aim_High — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:47:05 GMT

@Andypanda wrote: "Even if one gets 1.98% back instead Of the full 2% back it is still .48% more than a 1.5% card"

Yes it is and I never said that it wasn't.

I already said, "Is it worth giving up the extra earn? Probably not ... but the bigger question is whether we are actually getting the full 2% when the dust clears?" (There are other "opportunities" with Citi to lose more than .002% if you don't follow their other rules; for only one example, if you SD it for 12 months due to putting spend on other cards for cash-back or SUBS, you just lost whatever CB you had accrued.)

But I also said that "... my overall point which was that nobody ... offers ALL of those features while many other lower-paying cash back cards do." That was my criticism, of the 2% cards as a whole compared to lower-paying cash-back cards. Focusing on that .002% was not the point of the entire posting, only a minor part of it.

I will probably still eventually apply for at least one of them myself, but I have other priorities for the moment. But it would be nice to find one that is as game-free and uncomplicated as the 1.0% to 1.5% cash-back cards.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

creditfan — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 03:43:56 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
@creditfan wrote:
another 2% card
rbfcu
Yes, and it's one I don't see mentioned much.
Like several of the others, you must be a member and have accounts with them.
They are probably best for someone who is willing to do their banking there.
Do you have this card? I would be interested in comments since I rarely hear about it.

*Randolph-Brooks Federal Credit Union

SDFCU & RBFCU

both cards will be on top list since both are chip+pin priority

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 04:03:58 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
But I also said that "... my overall point which was that nobody ... offers ALL of those features while many other lower-paying cash back cards do." That was my criticism, of the 2% cards as a whole compared to lower-paying cash-back cards. Focusing on that .002% was not the point of the entire posting, only a minor part of it.

.

Which card(s) are you referring to here? I think the point is that ALL cards. not just the 2% ones, have some drawbacks, and each person decides how deal-breaker those drawbacks are. My guess, for example, is that not too many people here are concerned with getting paper statements, but as you are, having to pay extra for them drops the card from consideration. But others would (presumably!) have other concerns with your fave 1 or 1.5% card! So I think the Cap One QS meets most/all of your list, but for many the 3HP will also rule it out.

And it takes a lot for me to give up the extra rewards!

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Andypanda — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 05:07:40 GMT

Between healty/auto/home insurance, plus cable bill, the extra hala precent comes out to about$50 a year. These items that wouldn’t be covered by extendend warrenty or price protection coverege, so getting a 2% back card would be worth it. For benufits lije rental car insurance. Lost luggage, i would put it in my wf, propel which gets 3% back. Electronics i usually get at costco, which has great warrenty policy, es7if one has the costco visa. I believe the best practice is to slowley get a full portfolio of cards to cover as many situations as possible.

Re: Citibank DC vs. Paypal MC?

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:38:05 GMT

OP - I don't have a Citi DC but I use PayPal MC for all general spend. I've gotten 3 offers in the last 9 months or so from them which included getting a statement credit of $10 and $20 for a certain amount of spend like ($200 and $300 + the 2% CB) and right now I have 0% APR on all purchases until 1/1/20. No real downside of this card for me personally and I like the easy cash back redemption (no minimum redemption).