topic Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them? in Credit Cards

Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

OmarGB9 — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 17:08:21 GMT

Hey MyFICO folks,

So the other day when I ventured out of the garden to apply for my Cap One Platinum, I also decided to try for an Amex Delta Gold just for the fun of it, and while I ultimately (and expectedly) got declined, prior to hitting submit, I got a popup that said something along the lines of "Due to your previous history of opening/closing accounts and usage of balance transfer offers, you will not be eligible for SUB." I thought that was odd considering I've only ever had one Amex, the PRG, from 2015-2017 and it was closed in good standing, well after the one year mark (a little over two), and I was never late on it or anything. The only reasons I can think of for that dialogue are that my file is dirty right now and they don't like my report, though like I said, this popup was prior to them doing the HP (asked if I still wanted to continue with app).

Either that, OR, I do know I used a BT offer from other lenders a couple of times to pay the balance. Therein lies my question. Would they know/be able to tell that I BT'd the current balance with them away to another lender? If so, I guess that's considered bad in Amex's eyes?

Thanks for any insight.

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 16:54:57 GMT

They definitely have a record of where the payments come from, but it's anyone's guess as to whether or not it's part of their decisiion making process. I was recently approved for a Capital One Savor One without a sign-up bonus. They didn't give a reason for it, but it basically boils down to "we don't think you'll be a valuable enough customer for us to entice you."

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

K-in-Boston — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 16:56:52 GMT

Amex would not only be taking a look at opening/closing Amex cards, but all cards on your Experian credit report. Notice that it doesn't specifically state American Express cards. Amex can certainly see that an electronic draft was done to another lender and could likely infer (especially with soft pulling your credit report later and seeing a balance with that creditor increasing) that a BT was done, but in general Amex doesn't care how they get paid as long as they get paid.

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

OmarGB9 — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 17:16:12 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
Amex would not only be taking a look at opening/closing Amex cards, but all cards on your Experian credit report. Notice that it doesn't specifically state American Express cards. Amex can certainly see that an electronic draft was done to another lender and could likely infer (especially with soft pulling your credit report later and seeing a balance with that creditor increasing) that a BT was done, but in general Amex doesn't care how they get paid as long as they get paid.

I don't remember if it specifically said Amex cards; it may not have. In any case, I'm not a churner, unless they see COs as me chronically opening/closing accounts. My file isn't that thick or overloaded with accounts, so I honestly don't know where they get that history of opening/closing thing from.

But as far as BTs to pay them, they're okay with that then?

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

K-in-Boston — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 17:21:40 GMT

If it's a charge-off, that's still a closed account, right? Especially if your file is not that thick, then the proportion of still-open accounts to total accounts on your reports will be affected to a greater extent. I've used BTs to pay Amex balances many, many times over the years. No issues. But as with any lender, they may get nervous if you are doing the BTs to pyramid debt as you open new accounts.

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 22:44:24 GMT

This has nothing to do with the balance transfer. What you are seeing is the infamous AMEX anti-churning popup. AMEX has a once on lifetime rule. If you held a card, closed it you can not get any bonus associated with that card for "life". Oddly enough whether you got the bonus in the past does not matter. You can still apply and get approved for the card. (that is why they give you the option to proceed) The warning is just about the SUB.

Amex Popup

If American Express determines you to be ineligible for a bonus then before submitting your Amex application, a popup will appear telling you why you will be ineligible for the bonus.

One major reason is because you've already held the card. Another major might be because

based on your history with American Express welcome offers, introductory APR offers, or the number of cards you have opened and closed, you're not eligible to receive the welcome bonus.

Once in a Lifetime

You can only get signup bonus on an Amex card “once in a lifetime”. Once you hold a card (even if you didn't get signup bonus or got the card through product ) you forfeit signup bonus for "lifetime".

Data points (DP) vaguely suggest that this “lifetime” lasts for 7 years.

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Dec 2019 22:52:37 GMT

It's doubtful they know that it came from a BT, unless you specifically BT'd an Amex balance to Discover or Citi etc. If you pay off Amex from one of your linked accounts, to them it's just cash.

As to whether previous BT activity puts you on a list preventing a BT offer as a SUB, that I have no idea about. I've only ever had two BT's with Amex, one is paid off from a year ago or more. And a current one is on a BIZ card. So having a prior BT didn't affect me being able to get one on a second card. Though I don't know if it will afect my standing on a thiord.

Then again i don't rely on Amex for BT's, that's Discover's job!

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

OmarGB9 — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 02:48:09 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
If it's a charge-off, that's still a closed account, right? Especially if your file is not that thick, then the proportion of still-open accounts to total accounts on your reports will be affected to a greater extent. I've used BTs to pay Amex balances many, many times over the years. No issues. But as with any lender, they may get nervous if you are doing the BTs to pyramid debt as you open new accounts.

Right, but those weren't by choice and it's not like they were closed after a year/less than a year. All those CO's were on accounts that were at least 2/3 years old, some 3+ years old. It just seems unfair. Obviously the CO in itself is bad, but I think they should allow a recon to explain the situation that led to them, and more importantly, what I'm doing about them going forward. I don't know if I should try recon cause I don't want another HP.

@Anonymouswrote:
This has nothing to do with the balance transfer. What you are seeing is the infamous AMEX anti-churning popup. AMEX has a once on lifetime rule. If you held a card, closed it you can not get any bonus associated with that card for "life". Oddly enough whether you got the bonus in the past does not matter. You can still apply and get approved for the card. (that is why they give you the option to proceed) The warning is just about the SUB.

Amex Popup
If American Express determines you to be ineligible for a bonus then before submitting your Amex application, a popup will appear telling you why you will be ineligible for the bonus.
One major reason is because you've already held the card. Another major might be because
based on your history with American Express welcome offers, introductory APR offers, or the number of cards you have opened and closed, you're not eligible to receive the welcome bonus.

Once in a Lifetime
You can only get signup bonus on an Amex card “once in a lifetime”. Once you hold a card (even if you didn't get signup bonus or got the card through product ) you forfeit signup bonus for "lifetime".
Data points (DP) vaguely suggest that this “lifetime” lasts for 7 years.

Right, I know about Amex's "once in a lifetime (7 years)" rule, but again, I have only ever had one Amex - The PRG which has been changed in recent years and is not quite the same. Plus, I applied for the Amex Delta Gold, which I have never had. Hence my confusion on the popup...

Re: Can Amex tell if you used a BT to pay them?

OmarGB9 — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 02:49:46 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
It's doubtful they know that it came from a BT, unless you specifically BT'd an Amex balance to Discover or Citi etc. If you pay off Amex from one of your linked accounts, to them it's just cash.

As to whether previous BT activity puts you on a list preventing a BT offer as a SUB, that I have no idea about. I've only ever had two BT's with Amex, one is paid off from a year ago or more. And a current one is on a BIZ card. So having a prior BT didn't affect me being able to get one on a second card. Though I don't know if it will afect my standing on a thiord.

Then again i don't rely on Amex for BT's, that's Discover's job!

Yea I would never BT to Amex. My question was in regards to BTs away from Amex (i.e. using a BT offer on Disco or Barclays to pay Amex).