topic Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits in Credit Cards

Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 00:06:05 GMT

So having gone through the 4506-T process with Amex twice with no luck, I'm curious as to what the Amex underwriters are looking for when granting very large revolving credit lines. I know there are at least a few of you here with exceptionally high limits, and perhaps some I'm not aware of, so I'd be interested to read what's worked for you.

A little background - back in early 2018 I had a $21,000 Starwood Preferred Guest card and because I like the float between statement cut and due date, I was consistently running into issues with my organic monthly spend exceeding my credit line by several thousand dollars each month. I requested a CLI to $63,000, submitted a 4506-T, and after what seemed like ages, I was denied for the information on my tax transcripts not matching stated income. Income hadn't really changed, but I have significant 5-digit pre-tax deductions that lower my taxable income. One would think that Amex would keep in mind that this is true for a lot of people, and the variance was only about 10%. So while it may have been a large raw dollar amount, I can't imagine them denying someone for the same reason if they reported $33,000 income and their tax transcripts showed $30,000. I called to try to recon it, but was told that the underwriting decisions were final and that I should ask again later. I waited 91 days, asked again without the 4506-T and got a CLI to $35k then a few months later got approved for a pair of Delta cards with $10,000 starting lines, so it's not like I was really capped since they gave me another $34,000 in revolving credit over the next few months. And previous playing with the No-No Button (Check Spending Ability) showed me that Amex would approve obscene charges on my Platinum charge card higher than my current combined revolving limits.

I've been "stuck" at $74,500 combined revolving limits since March 2019, and my 2018 Amex personal spending exceeded $100k, including over $75k on a single card (SPG/SPG Luxury). I submitted another 4506-T back in September for a CLI on my Delta Reserve (which is at $50k; I think I asked for a 2x to $100k), my daily driver for all non-category spending. Same income as last time, and my 2017/2018 tax transcripts were pretty much identical to the 2016/2017 tax transcripts they saw before, but instead of the mismatch reason I got before, I got a revolving limits appropriate for income reason.

I have 18 years of experience running huge amounts of personal spending through my American Express cards, as well as income and scores that should easily support higher credit lines. I see so many others here on the forums with pretty much the same limits and a fraction of the spend. If I'm putting all of this through them and getting similar results as someone putting a few thousand dollars a year of groceries through a revolver, what do the underwriters want to see in order to raise my limits?

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

Peteyglad — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:17:35 GMT

Not sure what I can offer except for a few data points. I have 3 cards with a total limit of 92k. I also put $100k on my cards with roughly $70k of it on my EDP. Credit scores all in the low 800's. Reported income of 200k. I have yet to fill out a 4506, but I have been at my current limits for a year now with no increases. Even when I put in a CLI for 1k they want a 4506.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:21:13 GMT

Offering a "you're not alone" is at least comforting. Thank you! Interesting that you got that far without a 4506-T. I was under the (false) impression that I probably wouldn't be asked on that first $63k SPG request based on my long history, but I was.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

Peteyglad — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:23:15 GMT

I have thought about submitting a 4506 for grins and giggles, but haven't felt the need yet.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

pizza1 — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:27:28 GMT

I have no business in this thread..

I was trying to get my personal card above $500, LOL... edit..I no longer have that card either.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

redpat — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:43:29 GMT

Sorry K I can’t help either w/ delta res at 45k and Hilton at 25k I have been only using gold card at the moment w/ all me charges have 35k POT.

It could be all the available credit that you have might be holding you back w/ Amex increases. I know many don’t like hearing that but who knows.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

NimbusIII — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:50:45 GMT

I had a conversation with a very nice American express Executive on a flight a year ago that told me they cap at 100K or less on revolving lines . When asked what the guidelines for that were he was vague, and said roughly 4x that in income. However he did say with with business cards if you can show both a need and the ability to cover the expenses that a rep can adjust the limit. I have no definitive answer for you, but I would try talking to a rep from the need perspective and see if it gets you further. If you can explain to them that rolling 30k+ over on a 100K limit card would damage your credit rating then they may get that you have a good understanding a reason. This is if the rep has a clue. This had worked well for me in the past with Chase.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

Kforce — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:51:43 GMT

@redpat wrote:
It could be all the available credit that you have might be holding you back w/ Amex increases. I know many don’t like hearing that but who knows.

+ 1, Number of cards, and all the available credit.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

NimbusIII — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:58:38 GMT

Two other things that may be helpful.

1) ask for just a temporary increase to start when you have know you have a heavy month usage coming up. Most likely will be granted and sometimes doesn't fall off.

2) ask for part of a limit to be moved from another card to hit your max on the one you use the most.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

wasCB14 — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:06:29 GMT

I've found Amex is not interested at all in the complexities of income, or in other documentation.

I received a 1099 with unexpectedly high income and wanted to make a big estimated payment before filing my taxes. I explained over the phone that I could send Amex the 1099, or authorize Fidelity to release it to Amex, but that the unusual income wouldn't have appeared on a filed return yet. There was no interest in or response to my other documentation, even though my total debt at the time was negligible and Amex had previously confirmed my assets via the Schwab credit. It's just a person entering a number into a computer, and the computer approves it, rejects it, or requests the return.

I also face the obstacles that a lot of my available income goes on a separate return, that my available income fluctuates, and that very little of my BBP spend is actually for my business.

My approach has been to just accept relatively low CLs, report income very conservatively, and rely on BBP's soft CL/non-reporting utilization as wel as Schwab's NPSL.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:09:19 GMT

Thanks everyone. I have multiples of my income in revolving credit, so that's certainly a distinct probability. When Pooka89 mentioned a few years back having seen numerous revolvers in the 6 digits and even one in the 7 digits, I kind of made it my goal to achieve a $100k revolver with both Amex and Bank of America (BoA accomplished a while back minus $100, curse of the $99.9k Club LOL).

Not sure if a temporary increase would be feasible, but maybe I'll try that around tax season next year. Might be hard to justify a "I need a temporary $30k increase so my scores don't dive if I charge $20k this month" when I already know from experience they'll certainly let me spend well in excess of my credit limits, and I'd think they'd just suggest putting it on one of my charge cards that does have the spending power and wouldn't affect utilization.

I have certainly shifted limits around to make my primary card more usable. I nerfed my circa-2002 Blue down to $500 and moved the rest to SPG right after I got it in 2017, and I have since moved limits from my Marriott and Delta Platinum cards to Reserve to bring it up to $50k.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

tacpoly — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:10:41 GMT

How much spend do you put through all your cards and what fraction of your household income is that? If you're putting in $100k - 200k spend on $300k income, I doubt you'll get significant CLI since you may be at the limit of what Amex thinks you can "afford".

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:12:46 GMT

@wasCB14 wrote:
I've found Amex is not interested at all in the complexities of income, or in other documentation.

I received a 1099 with unexpectedly high income and wanted to make a big estimated payment before filing my taxes. I explained over the phone that I could send Amex the 1099, or authorize Fidelity to release it to Amex, but that the unusual income wouldn't have appeared on a filed return yet. There was no interest in or response to my other documentation, even though my total debt at the time was negligible and Amex had previously confirmed my assets via the Schwab credit. It's just a person entering a number into a computer, and the computer approves it, rejects it, or requests the return.

I also face the obstacles that a lot of my available income goes on a separate return, that my available income fluctuates, and that very little of my BBP spend is actually for my business.

My approach has been to just accept relatively low CLs, report income very conservatively, and rely on BBP's soft CL/non-reporting utilization as wel as Schwab's NPSL.

That certainly sounds like a headache. In your case, though, it's just a matter of Amex being firm that the only allowable documentation for a CLI request is a Form 4506-T and that the previous year's tax return will not be available until after August. That certainly can be frustrating for those with different scenarios besides being a W-2 employee. In my own case, I submitted per their rules and requirements and still got no results.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:19:21 GMT

@tacpoly wrote:
How much spend do you put through all your cards and what fraction of your household income is that? If you're putting in $100k - 200k spend on $300k income, I doubt you'll get significant CLI since you may be at the limit of what Amex thinks you can "afford".

I maximize rewards and everything that can be paid with a card is paid with a card. Usually it's anywhere from $10-15k spend across all cards in an average month, probably more than half of income over the course of a year. I'm not sure on the affordability angle since they'd certainly let me spend far more on my charge cards than I could possibly afford to pay back in a given month given experience with unusually large purchases and Check Spending Ability.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

tacpoly — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:29:09 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
@tacpoly wrote:
How much spend do you put through all your cards and what fraction of your household income is that? If you're putting in $100k - 200k spend on $300k income, I doubt you'll get significant CLI since you may be at the limit of what Amex thinks you can "afford".
I maximize rewards and everything that can be paid with a card is paid with a card. Usually it's anywhere from $10-15k spend across all cards in an average month, probably more than half of income over the course of a year. I'm not sure on the affordability angle since they'd certainly let me spend far more on my charge cards than I could possibly afford to pay back in a given month given experience with unusually large purchases and Check Spending Ability.

I thought I read on here that charge cards and credit cards have different underwriting requirements (i.e. a bank has to have the money set aside for each credit card). Maybe that explains the difference.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

FinStar — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:38:01 GMT

Great thread @K-in-Boston.

I really don't know what they specifically look for per se, but all my revolvers combined (personal and biz) are a bit north of $150K. That said, no single card is $100K since I've moved some CLs around depending on usage (I like to spread the wealth 😁).

Plus, I can't really discern any specific pattern on the approved SLs (for my specific profile) since it's all over the place whether it's a personal or biz CC. I'll test it out again soon with another revolver on the horizon (maybe a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario?), plus whether another ~3x CLI is possible for one account.

One thing that's never come up, is 4506-T, voluntary or involuntary. It's fair to say there's likely some individuals that may have a single $100K CC (personal or biz), but I've yet to see any recent DPs on this.

Most of the majority of my spend typically goes on their charge cards, though.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 22:23:22 GMT

@tacpoly wrote:
I thought I read on here that charge cards and credit cards have different underwriting requirements (i.e. a bank has to have the money set aside for each credit card). Maybe that explains the difference.

Another quite plausible explanation. In that case, I want some of that grocery card reserve being held.

(It was a joke. No pitchforks and torches, please.)

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

tacpoly — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 22:50:26 GMT

@FinStar wrote:

Most of the majority of my spend typically goes on their charge cards, though.

Gotta say, most of the people I know who spend a crap ton use charge cards (income in the 7 figures +). I don't know anyone who carries balances (or no one will own up to it ). Seriously though, we're all financially savvy and cc interest is such as waste of money, that it's very likely.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 22:59:07 GMT

Do you carry any balances? I'll assume no.

The game might change at higher limits, kind of like lifting a 30 lb object 20 feet above ground vs a 3000 lb object. If it falls to the ground, it causes more damage.

A $500 balance on a $1000 limit card isn't a killer if you don't pay or start paying the minimum. On a 50K balance, it's more worrisome. The utilization is the same, but not the risk.

I would bet the number of cards and available credit are the main drivers.

It seems lenders are a little more tolerable of things when your scores are well north of 800, but that might be because the cardholder is carrying balances, but would have higher scores if it weren't the case.

Re: Achieving Very Large Amex Personal Revolving Limits

K-in-Boston — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 23:31:51 GMT

Yes, I carry mind-boggling balances on a few cards at low/no interest (in hindsight, I should have at least considered filing BK when the markets crashed but instead paid several annual incomes in interest), but they're been on a major downward trend for the past 4 or 5 years after being stagnant for ages. Other than utilization in the past, no credit issues - not even a 1-day late.