topic Re: Is a chargeback reasonable? in Credit Cards

Is a chargeback reasonable?

Anonymous — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 16:51:12 GMT

I bought plane tickets (about $850) from Norwegian Air in December on my Amex (Cash Magnet) card, and have paid it off since then. The flights were for 3/21 and 3/28. The flights were cancelled by the airline because of the whole COVID19 situation, and on 3/16 (3 weeks ago) I submitted a refund request to the airline. I've heard nothing back from them since then. I emailed again last week. No response.

Both the US (where I live) and Europe (destination) have regulations about how quickly a refund must be processed -- the airline is supposed to have 7 days to issue a refund. I'm wondering if it's reasonable to do a chargeback given that I haven't heard back in 3 weeks, or if that would be seen as petty given the current situation. Thoughts?

...

USDOT:

>"If a passenger is owed a refund, an airline, travel agent, or online travel agency must process it within seven business days if the passenger paid by credit card, and 20 business days if the passenger paid by cash or check."

and EC 261/2004

>"1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:

>(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan"

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

SBR249 — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 17:24:18 GMT

If you really want your money right away, then you can certainly ask for a chargeback. But I remember reading a few days ago that Norwegian had furloughed about 90% of its staff, so it's somewhat understandable that they are taking a long time to process all the customer inquiries.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 17:46:04 GMT

This is happening quite a bit. Just read about Air France not issuing refunds and Amex refusing to do a charge back because they are part of the Skyteam Alliance. There was talk of a class-action.

Not sure how you should proceed as I don't know if filling a complaint with the CFPB would help. Would definitely call amex and see what they think.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

tcbofade — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 21:31:06 GMT

Yes, a chargeback is reasonable here, and I would certainly try it.

Please let us know how it turns out. Good luck!

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

DaveInAZ — Mon, 06 Apr 2020 22:11:06 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I bought plane tickets (about $850) from Norwegian Air in December on my Amex (Cash Magnet) card, and have paid it off since then.

Too late. You have 60 days to dispute a credit card charge, per the Fair Credit Billing Act of 1974. The 60 days starts from the day the statement containing the erroneous charge was mailed to you or made available online. And especially since you've already paid for the charge Amex is not going to be sympathetic. You'll just have to keep working with Norwegian Air, and keep your fingers crossed they don't file for bankruptcy.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

SBR249 — Tue, 07 Apr 2020 00:14:01 GMT

@DaveInAZ wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I bought plane tickets (about $850) from Norwegian Air in December on my Amex (Cash Magnet) card, and have paid it off since then.
Too late. You have 60 days to dispute a credit card charge, per the Fair Credit Billing Act of 1974. The 60 days starts from the day the statement containing the erroneous charge was mailed to you or made available online. And especially since you've already paid for the charge Amex is not going to be sympathetic. You'll just have to keep working with Norwegian Air, and keep your fingers crossed they don't file for bankruptcy.

I believe AmEx's policy doesn't have the 60 day limit. They allow you to file a chargeback any time. Of course, given that it has no legal backing, this policy could be changed at any time by AmEx.

However, you do raise a valid point in that even though CC companies don't do this very often, technically, there is legal precedent for denial of chargeback if you've already paid off the balance. (See Hasan vs. AmEx and Hasan vs. Chase Bank) But I'd like to think that AmEx would treat canceled airline tickets worth $850 in the middle of a pandemic differently than a few million dollars' worth of undelivered wine.

Edit: I couldn't find any time limits on the consumer side of AmEx's website, but their merchant website apparently has language that limits the dispute window to 120 day from date of transaction. Although there is a notation that disputes for goods/services not received may have a longer window.

https://www.americanexpress.com/us/merchant/manage-disputes.html

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

SarahJo — Tue, 07 Apr 2020 01:13:21 GMT

If it were me: I would. To show that within the period of cancellation (meaning from the date the trip was declared not possible, due to international travel restrictions) you acknowledged the restriction and clearly requested refund by chargeback request. The worst case they say no BUT you not only can provide evidence of 2 attempts with Norwegian, but also an attempt with Amex to show diligence. Print it, file it. Certainly no one knows how long "all this" will take, especially with slimming personnel (obviously understandable). However, when the time comes, you can provide simple honest proof of your request and intention by showing XYZ attempts to both parties on each end of the transaction.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

kudosalert — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 04:52:30 GMT

yes, file a dispute w/ Amex. have to look out for yourself first in these times. i've done the same after trying to contact the airline and not hearing back from them.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

morgacj2004 — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 05:58:59 GMT

I think you should give them 30 days from the cancellation date and then file a CB. I am in the same situation as you with Philippine Airlines. I have been waiting for 3 weeks. On day 30 I will file a CB with CITI bank. One worry is that Norwegian may file for BK.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

flyingmd — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 14:45:45 GMT

If they were non refundable tickets, doesnt matter that the flights were cancelled. The fine print protects them in war, natural disaster, etc. They will issue a credit to be ised on another flight whocu is your best bet. I suspect in the end, you will loose the chargeback case.
If they were refundable tickets, then the airline would issue a refund.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 15:00:42 GMT

@DaveInAZ wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I bought plane tickets (about $850) from Norwegian Air in December on my Amex (Cash Magnet) card, and have paid it off since then.
Too late. You have 60 days to dispute a credit card charge, per the Fair Credit Billing Act of 1974. The 60 days starts from the day the statement containing the erroneous charge was mailed to you or made available online. And especially since you've already paid for the charge Amex is not going to be sympathetic. You'll just have to keep working with Norwegian Air, and keep your fingers crossed they don't file for bankruptcy.

These are special circumstances. There are laws that require the airlines to refund a flight if cancelled by them, regardless. But, Covid-19 has added another layer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2020/04/06/airlines-must-issue-coronavirus-cancellation-refunds-says-eu/amp/

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#cancellation

Covid-19 is not a valid excuse under "extraordinary circumstances" because airlines are deemed essential and they can continue flying as needed. If the airline chooses to reduce flights, that's on them.

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 15:04:56 GMT

@SBR249 wrote:
@DaveInAZ wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I bought plane tickets (about $850) from Norwegian Air in December on my Amex (Cash Magnet) card, and have paid it off since then.
Too late. You have 60 days to dispute a credit card charge, per the Fair Credit Billing Act of 1974. The 60 days starts from the day the statement containing the erroneous charge was mailed to you or made available online. And especially since you've already paid for the charge Amex is not going to be sympathetic. You'll just have to keep working with Norwegian Air, and keep your fingers crossed they don't file for bankruptcy.
I believe AmEx's policy doesn't have the 60 day limit. They allow you to file a chargeback any time. Of course, given that it has no legal backing, this policy could be changed at any time by AmEx.

However, you do raise a valid point in that even though CC companies don't do this very often, technically, there is legal precedent for denial of chargeback if you've already paid off the balance. (See Hasan vs. AmEx and Hasan vs. Chase Bank) But I'd like to think that AmEx would treat canceled airline tickets worth $850 in the middle of a pandemic differently than a few million dollars' worth of undelivered wine.

Edit: I couldn't find any time limits on the consumer side of AmEx's website, but their merchant website apparently has language that limits the dispute window to 120 day from date of transaction. Although there is a notation that disputes for goods/services not received may have a longer window.

https://www.americanexpress.com/us/merchant/manage-disputes.html

As I stated earlier, amex is denying refunds and chargebacks for airlines that are part of the Skyteam Alliance. Doesn't apply to the OP, but something to be mindful of.

https://milestomemories.com/air-france-amex-refuses-chargeback/

Re: Is a chargeback reasonable?

FlaDude — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 17:39:35 GMT

@flyingmd wrote:
If they were non refundable tickets, doesnt matter that the flights were cancelled. The fine print protects them in war, natural disaster, etc. They will issue a credit to be ised on another flight whocu is your best bet. I suspect in the end, you will loose the chargeback case.
If they were refundable tickets, then the airline would issue a refund.

Under US DOT and similar European laws, airlines have to provide a refund for cancelled flights. Many of them are trying to wiggle out of it, pushing airline credit instead, but legally, a customer should be able get a refund.

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds