topic Re: Help with C$R Decision in Credit Cards

Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:13:15 GMT

Always need to check in with you guys before I make big decisions like this because you're way smarter & have helped me make great decisions in the past!

HISTORY:

- Opened C$R (Chase Sapphire Reserve) in 09/2016 for Dining & Travel charges only

- 1 or 2 nice vacations with the girls per year + a decent amount of dining spend made the AF (minus travel credit & other benefits) worth it for me (IMO)

- Nothing crazy, I think about 7-10k spend on the card, annually

- Also have the FU that I use for general spend and combine those points with the C$R points

- I usually redeem the rewards for travel through the Chase Portal (my go-to) OR I transfer them to United if I get more than 1.5 cent value for that specific flight

CHANGES:

- Chase increased the AF by $100 (to a total of $550) which will hit my 10/2020 statement

- Due to the pandemic, my Dining & Travel spend is at an all-time low

- Less than $800 total spend so far this year & I don't estimate it getting to $2,000 by 12/2020

- (groceries in lieu of dining & 0 travel)

- Closing on a new home purchase on 07/2020 so I'm estimating my Dining & Travel expenses will be very low through the next 1.5 years (end of 2021-ish)

- I will get the full DoorDash credit ($60) before the end of the year but I doubt I'll get the full $300 travel credit unless I take a bunch of rideshares when we reopen, which I don't think I would do organically

MY PLAN FOR THE CARD:

- Downgrade the C$R to the Chase Freedom (already have the FU)

- I won't miss the 3x points for travel or the travel benefits since I don't have travel plans for a while (maybe until 2022)

- If there is a surprise vacation before 2022, I have 180,000 points accumulated in the C$R account to use

- I won't miss the 3x points for dining, as I'm grandfathered in to the non-AF Cap1 Savor (4% CB Dining & Entertainment)

MY PLAN FOR THE POINTS:

This is where I need your help, guys:

- 180,000 points accumulated in the C$R account

- I think the best thing to do is transfer all points to United prior to closing the card. This way, I can at least have them sitting in my United account & more than likely will be able to redeem them for more than $0.01 per point whenever I decide to book a flight again in the future

- OR should I only transfer some points to United & leave some points on the card? Would there be any benefit in that?

- For example, let's say in 2 or 3 years from now the C$R or CSP makes sense for my spend again & I reapply, I'll have those points there to use for the travel portal

Does anyone have other suggestions that I may not have thought of? Thanks so much, in advance for all of your help!

Re: Help with C$R Decision

CBrow — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:27:54 GMT

The only thing I can think of is that if you downgraded and left a points balance, you can't use them for partner transfers. What are the points worth to you on United vs. if they were used as cash back redemption on the Freedom?

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:42:39 GMT

@CBrow wrote:
The only thing I can think of is that if you downgraded and left a points balance, you can't use them for partner transfers. What are the points worth to you on United vs. if they were used as cash back redemption on the Freedom?

I won't be able to transfer to travel partner once I downgrade, that's correct.

I'm assuming that if I transfer the points to United just before downgrading then they would be worth more than $0.01 per point at some time in the future when I want to use them but I honestly don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys if I should go all in with United or maybe only put half in United & leave the other half on the Chase Freedom.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Aim_High — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:35:50 GMT

This one could be tricky because "points" value can change dramatically and the travel industry is in a period of major realignment. Who knows what points will be worth in the future?

That said, one option would be to simply cash them out for $1800 at 0.01 ccp and put it into a high yield savings for spending wherever and whenever you do decide to travel. Puts you totally in control and insulates you from any point value loss.

Transferring to United would be an acceptable option also if you want to retain the potential for a higher return via travel redemption.

You can, however, transfer those CSR UR points over to either the Freedom or Freedom Unlimited before you close or downgrade the CSR. It's easy to move points and I do it all the time. (Top menu of UR; click "more" and "combine points".) Later, you could just transfer back to the (new) CSP or CSR once you do reopen it.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:50:21 GMT

If at signing, I had intended to keep the CSR as a long term rewards card, one bad year where I didn't feel I got my money's worth wouldn't ruin my feelings toward the card or its benefits.

If I had planned on churning the card and just wanted the SUB, and wanted to dump the card the second it stopped returning my AF in rewards, then go right ahead.

I run about $20-25k through my CSR annually, and I feel I'd break even on a lesser AF / lesser rewards card. It just wouldn't matter too much, mathematically. So long as my new CL wasn't impacted, I wouldn't feel cheated out of anything.

I am somewhat vain and love plunking down a metal card, even just seeing it in my wallet. I'm big on the tactile feel of a card, the heft and design. My advice would be do what takes care of you, so long as you're under 5/24, and low INQ. Always keep your profile ready to apply

Let us all know what you decide!

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Citylights18 — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:09:06 GMT

I would go from CSR to CSP because you'll retain the doordash credit and the ability to move points.

You can still move points from the CSP to United at 1.5 but also have the option of going 2.5 to Hyatt.

Chase usually splits up promotions between Sapphire and Freedom so its good to have one of both.

FWIW, Freedom had 5x Gas in Q1 and 5x Groceries this quarter. That may be the best of the year already in.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:16:45 GMT

@Anonymous I hardly feel like I'm churning the card, don't make me feel so guilty! I've had it for a solid 4 years & paid three AFs.

I did sign up with the intention of it being a long term travel card but my spend pattern and travel plans are going to be thrown off for a minimum of 2 years, due to the pandemic & a home purchase, not just one bad year.

I share your sentiment on the metal card feel and I've been proud to have the C$R and take advantage of the benefits over the years. I've used the Primary Rental Car Insurance several times on vacation, utilized the Priority Pass lounges when I've traveled internationally, Global Entry, etc. But $550 is large fee if you're not utilizing the benefits for a while.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

jdbkiang — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:03:14 GMT

Not sure if this was suggested, but what about just keeping the points and downgrading. In the future, if/when travel opens up again, you can upgrade back to the CSR and use the points as is.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 02:50:18 GMT

@jdbkiang wrote:
Not sure if this was suggested, but what about just keeping the points and downgrading. In the future, if/when travel opens up again, you can upgrade back to the CSR and use the points as is.

Like any investment, this all comes down to how you predict things will change and timelines. Generally, with exceptions, points become less valuable over time as airlines and hotels revise their award charts. Once the current situation improves, it seems reasonable that carriers and hotels will be eager to drum up business, and may lower prices significantly. They may also improve the award charts, but as cash fares become cheaper, points might appear to be less valuable.

It also depends on what sort of fares you are looking at. Points are almost always going to be the best way for international premium cabin fares, much less so for domestic or international economy. So if you are doing the former, and expect to travel on united or partner, transferring might be a good thing to do, especially now that those miles don't expire.

As AIM_HIGH says, you could also cash out at 1cpp and put it in a high yield savings. However, even though that might be the best, I always find it hard to do: you get the card expecting a min of 1.5cpp and getting less seems like defeat!

Re: Help with C$R Decision

NRB525 — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 04:05:43 GMT

180,000 UR is a large value. I would not be too quick to just give them to United.
I would transfer them into the CFU as a least worst option. Worst case there, you redeem them at 1c through Chase.

Best case, you apply for a new CSR in 2021 for the updated SUB, pull the UR back to CSR and do some awesome redemption with the ~250,000 UR.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

jdbkiang — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 04:35:23 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@jdbkiang wrote:
Not sure if this was suggested, but what about just keeping the points and downgrading. In the future, if/when travel opens up again, you can upgrade back to the CSR and use the points as is.
Like any investment, this all comes down to how you predict things will change and timelines. Generally, with exceptions, points become less valuable over time as airlines and hotels revise their award charts. Once the current situation improves, it seems reasonable that carriers and hotels will be eager to drum up business, and may lower prices significantly. They may also improve the award charts, but as cash fares become cheaper, points might appear to be less valuable.

It also depends on what sort of fares you are looking at. Points are almost always going to be the best way for international premium cabin fares, much less so for domestic or international economy. So if you are doing the former, and expect to travel on united or partner, transferring might be a good thing to do, especially now that those miles don't expire.

As AIM_HIGH says, you could also cash out at 1cpp and put it in a high yield savings. However, even though that might be the best, I always find it hard to do: you get the card expecting a min of 1.5cpp and getting less seems like defeat!

I agree, but the 1 CPP cash out route is available for the Freedom cards too, and I don't see them nerfing it without notice. Also, with credit tightening up, I think it's just a good idea to keep cards open as much as possible.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

red259 — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 04:41:32 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Always need to check in with you guys before I make big decisions like this because you're way smarter & have helped me make great decisions in the past!

HISTORY:
- Opened C$R (Chase Sapphire Reserve) in 09/2016 for Dining & Travel charges only
- 1 or 2 nice vacations with the girls per year + a decent amount of dining spend made the AF (minus travel credit & other benefits) worth it for me (IMO)
- Nothing crazy, I think about 7-10k spend on the card, annually
- Also have the FU that I use for general spend and combine those points with the C$R points
- I usually redeem the rewards for travel through the Chase Portal (my go-to) OR I transfer them to United if I get more than 1.5 cent value for that specific flight

CHANGES:
- Chase increased the AF by $100 (to a total of $550) which will hit my 10/2020 statement
- Due to the pandemic, my Dining & Travel spend is at an all-time low
- Less than $800 total spend so far this year & I don't estimate it getting to $2,000 by 12/2020
- (groceries in lieu of dining & 0 travel)
- Closing on a new home purchase on 07/2020 so I'm estimating my Dining & Travel expenses will be very low through the next 1.5 years (end of 2021-ish)
- I will get the full DoorDash credit ($60) before the end of the year but I doubt I'll get the full $300 travel credit unless I take a bunch of rideshares when we reopen, which I don't think I would do organically

MY PLAN FOR THE CARD:
- Downgrade the C$R to the Chase Freedom (already have the FU)
- I won't miss the 3x points for travel or the travel benefits since I don't have travel plans for a while (maybe until 2022)
- If there is a surprise vacation before 2022, I have 180,000 points accumulated in the C$R account to use
- I won't miss the 3x points for dining, as I'm grandfathered in to the non-AF Cap1 Savor (4% CB Dining & Entertainment)

MY PLAN FOR THE POINTS:
This is where I need your help, guys:
- 180,000 points accumulated in the C$R account
- I think the best thing to do is transfer all points to United prior to closing the card. This way, I can at least have them sitting in my United account & more than likely will be able to redeem them for more than $0.01 per point whenever I decide to book a flight again in the future
- OR should I only transfer some points to United & leave some points on the card? Would there be any benefit in that?
- For example, let's say in 2 or 3 years from now the C$R or CSP makes sense for my spend again & I reapply, I'll have those points there to use for the travel portal

Does anyone have other suggestions that I may not have thought of? Thanks so much, in advance for all of your help!

I wouldn't leave points in a chase account that I cant transfer, because I don't see it worthwhile to redeem them for cash. If you don't want to PC to the CSP fo lower AF and ability to transfer the points then I would transfer all the points to whatever programs you will be using. The downside is once the points are in those programs you risk devaluations striking at any time which in times like this are quite possible.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 04:47:32 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous I hardly feel like I'm churning the card, don't make me feel so guilty! I've had it for a solid 4 years & paid three AFs.

I did sign up with the intention of it being a long term travel card but my spend pattern and travel plans are going to be thrown off for a minimum of 2 years, due to the pandemic & a home purchase, not just one bad year.

I share your sentiment on the metal card feel and I've been proud to have the C$R and take advantage of the benefits over the years. I've used the Primary Rental Car Insurance several times on vacation, utilized the Priority Pass lounges when I've traveled internationally, Global Entry, etc. But $550 is large fee if you're not utilizing the benefits for a while.

All my yakking and I totally about the possible downgrade to CSP! Will they let you do a simple product change with no INQ and not impact your AAoA?

Re: Help with C$R Decision

CBrow — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 05:23:58 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous I hardly feel like I'm churning the card, don't make me feel so guilty! I've had it for a solid 4 years & paid three AFs.

I did sign up with the intention of it being a long term travel card but my spend pattern and travel plans are going to be thrown off for a minimum of 2 years, due to the pandemic & a home purchase, not just one bad year.

I share your sentiment on the metal card feel and I've been proud to have the C$R and take advantage of the benefits over the years. I've used the Primary Rental Car Insurance several times on vacation, utilized the Priority Pass lounges when I've traveled internationally, Global Entry, etc. But $550 is large fee if you're not utilizing the benefits for a while.
All my yakking and I totally about the possible downgrade to CSP! Will they let you do a simple product change with no INQ and not impact your AAoA?

Yep! Since it is a product change, you aren't changing the account, just the features tailored to it. AAoA and inquiries wouldn't change since you're not applying for credit.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

ngoaa — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 08:32:07 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Always need to check in with you guys before I make big decisions like this because you're way smarter & have helped me make great decisions in the past!

HISTORY:
- Opened C$R (Chase Sapphire Reserve) in 09/2016 for Dining & Travel charges only
- 1 or 2 nice vacations with the girls per year + a decent amount of dining spend made the AF (minus travel credit & other benefits) worth it for me (IMO)
- Nothing crazy, I think about 7-10k spend on the card, annually
- Also have the FU that I use for general spend and combine those points with the C$R points
- I usually redeem the rewards for travel through the Chase Portal (my go-to) OR I transfer them to United if I get more than 1.5 cent value for that specific flight

CHANGES:
- Chase increased the AF by $100 (to a total of $550) which will hit my 10/2020 statement
- Due to the pandemic, my Dining & Travel spend is at an all-time low
- Less than $800 total spend so far this year & I don't estimate it getting to $2,000 by 12/2020
- (groceries in lieu of dining & 0 travel)
- Closing on a new home purchase on 07/2020 so I'm estimating my Dining & Travel expenses will be very low through the next 1.5 years (end of 2021-ish)
- I will get the full DoorDash credit ($60) before the end of the year but I doubt I'll get the full $300 travel credit unless I take a bunch of rideshares when we reopen, which I don't think I would do organically

MY PLAN FOR THE CARD:
- Downgrade the C$R to the Chase Freedom (already have the FU)
- I won't miss the 3x points for travel or the travel benefits since I don't have travel plans for a while (maybe until 2022)
- If there is a surprise vacation before 2022, I have 180,000 points accumulated in the C$R account to use
- I won't miss the 3x points for dining, as I'm grandfathered in to the non-AF Cap1 Savor (4% CB Dining & Entertainment)

MY PLAN FOR THE POINTS:
This is where I need your help, guys:
- 180,000 points accumulated in the C$R account
- I think the best thing to do is transfer all points to United prior to closing the card. This way, I can at least have them sitting in my United account & more than likely will be able to redeem them for more than $0.01 per point whenever I decide to book a flight again in the future
- OR should I only transfer some points to United & leave some points on the card? Would there be any benefit in that?
- For example, let's say in 2 or 3 years from now the C$R or CSP makes sense for my spend again & I reapply, I'll have those points there to use for the travel portal

Does anyone have other suggestions that I may not have thought of? Thanks so much, in advance for all of your help!

I would transfer to CFU to keep the UR. That way, you will always have that flexibility of transferring to United or another Chase UR card in the future. I currently have the CSR too and I am in the same situation; probably will downgrade the card if this Covid-19 keeps up and transfer my points to my Freedom, FU, or Ink Preferred.

Not going to lie though, I literally logged in just to let you know that your post has the nicest format I have ever seen on here lol.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 12:48:40 GMT

@NRB525 wrote:
180,000 UR is a large value. I would not be too quick to just give them to United.
I would transfer them into the CFU as a least worst option. Worst case there, you redeem them at 1c through Chase.

Best case, you apply for a new CSR in 2021 for the updated SUB, pull the UR back to CSR and do some awesome redemption with the ~250,000 UR.

This is the option that I like the most but I dont know if it would be frowned upon by Chase.

I've been thinking a lot about this & I'm pretty sure I'm going to do the following:

- leave all the points on the Freedom I'm downgrading to for now. This way, if I need some, I can still cash out for 1cpp

- then apply for the CSP in 2021 or 2022 when plan to start traveling again.

I'll be eligible for another SUB by then since it would be well over 48 months since the SUB from the CSR in 2016 & I'll be able to either redeem all my points for 1.25cpp or travel to transfer partners with only a $95 AF. It's the most profitable for me but I don't know if they'd hate me for it.

@Anonymous you're right that cashing them out at anything less than 1.5cpp does hurt since I've used the card for almost 4 years, calculating the reward at that price. I am most definitely an economy traveler and my friends & I are cost conscious in regards to lodging so I like to use my points for the free flights & I'm happy to only get 1.5cpp.

Re: Help with C$R Decision

UpperNwGuy — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:21:35 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
If at signing, I had intended to keep the CSR as a long term rewards card, one bad year where I didn't feel I got my money's worth wouldn't ruin my feelings toward the card or its benefits.

I'm in the exact same situation as Abby except I'm not buying a house. I'm probably going to do what she's going to do. One bad year might tempt me to keep the CSR. However, I think we are going to be in for more than one bad year. I'm planning to avoid cabs, rideshares, restaurants, airplanes, hotels, and overseas destinations until an effective vaccine has been developed and I have received it. That makes the CSR useless to me.... and the $100 fee increase seals the deal. (By the way, I dislike the metal card. It doesn't work in all payment devices, especially those in cabs.)

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Aim_High — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:45:20 GMT

@UpperNwGuy wrote:
... I think we are going to be in for more than one bad year. I'm planning to avoid cabs, rideshares, restaurants, airplanes, hotels, and overseas destinations until an effective vaccine has been developed and I have received it.

Wow, that seems pretty extreme to me unless perhaps I were in a high-risk group, but we all have to do what we think is best for our situation. I have believed that the majority of the public plans to be cautious to some degree, but I think we'll see a slow rebound particularly in domestic activities and travel. And I agree that international travel may be a tougher nut to crack.

I've continued to use my CSR even at home for carry-out food and have put a few hundred dollars a month on it. Plus it magnifies my UR value on my INK Cash (5% > 7.5% on cellphone and home cable/internet monthly) and Freedom rotating categories (5% > 7.5%). I'm still accumulating points for an eventual rebound. But also, my work is "essential" so I have continued to travel and stay in hotels during the pandemic and dine away from home more often than I would if I were quarantined. And I'm not averse to some limited personal travel or staying in hotels before the end of the year, unless the situation becomes much more grave and restrictions are not lifted. It just probably won't be to anywhere experiencing a "hot spot" of coronavirus flareups.

I'm not sure if they will extend it but my CSR annual fee is due in May and Chase emailed me a few weeks ago to say they will be crediting my account $100 due to the recent fee increase and the coronavirus. I believe they are doing it for all fees due in next couple of months. That helped to keep me from cancellation thoughts, since I was already not happy with the new benefits versus the AF increase.

Fortunately for the economy, I think your plans are by-far the most conservative return-to-normal scenario and I don't think the overall downturn will last until a vaccine has been widely dispersed. If that were the case with everyone, this pandemic could lead to the worst economic disaster ever. Does anyone else have thoughts on how long they will sit out all travel, restaurants, and hotels?

Re: Help with C$R Decision

CreditCuriosity — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:58:31 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
@UpperNwGuy wrote:
... I think we are going to be in for more than one bad year. I'm planning to avoid cabs, rideshares, restaurants, airplanes, hotels, and overseas destinations until an effective vaccine has been developed and I have received it.
Wow, that seems pretty extreme to me unless perhaps I were in a high-risk group, but we all have to do what we think is best for our situation. I have believed that the majority of the public plans to be cautious to some degree, but I think we'll see a slow rebound particularly in domestic activities and travel. And I agree that international travel may be a tougher nut to crack.

I've continued to use my CSR even at home for carry-out food and have put a few hundred dollars a month on it. Plus it magnifies my UR value on my INK Cash (5% > 7.5% on cellphone and home cable/internet monthly) and Freedom rotating categories (5% > 7.5%).   I'm still accumulating points for an eventual rebound. But also, my work is "essential" so I have continued to travel and stay in hotels during the pandemic and dine away from home more often than I would if I were quarantined.   And I'm not averse to some limited personal travel or staying in hotels before the end of the year, unless the situation becomes much more grave and restrictions are not lifted. It just probably won't be to anywhere experiencing a "hot spot" of coronavirus flareups.

I'm not sure if they will extend it but my CSR annual fee is due in May and Chase emailed me a few weeks ago to say they will be crediting my account $100 due to the recent fee increase and the coronavirus. I believe they are doing it for all fees due in next couple of months.   That helped to keep me from cancellation thoughts, since I was already not happy with the new benefits versus the AF increase.

Fortunately for the economy, I think your plans are by-far the most conservative return-to-normal scenario and I don't think the overall downturn will last until a vaccine has been widely dispersed. If that were the case with everyone, this pandemic could lead to the worst economic disaster ever.    Does anyone else have thoughts on how long they will sit out all travel, restaurants, and hotels?

Yep extreme to me as well, but to each and there own.. Not going to let it control me and most likely I probably already had a mellow case of it. When tests come out to see if you had it or not i will certainly be tested and move on with life as normal regardless certainly within the US around aug/sept and depending on rest of world early next year. As mentioned each person has there reasons and one less person on a plane with me

With regards to CSR my AF is coming up in a few months see if they give me the 450 AF version if they do it will be kept otherwise will downgrade to CS until i start to travel again later this year

Re: Help with C$R Decision

Citylights18 — Mon, 27 Apr 2020 02:58:02 GMT

If I had to put probabilities to it for 2020:

Airline Travel 15%

Rideshare 50%

Hotel 75%

Restaurant 90%

This is just for the probability of doing any of the above 1 time in 2020. There is a chance the restaurants where I live won't be back for 2020.

The window is closing up on airline travel. I don't think a lot my family will be up for destination holiday travel this year with the pandemic since we had it last year. Summer is not shot with shifts in work schedule.

Rideshare I use if I'm going to the airport or working late (usually 2-3 times a year I take it). I'll be in the office far fewer days the remainder of the year so I may or may not be on one.

Hotel I already have an out-of-state funeral service to go to once lockdown ends. Its in CT though one of the hardest hit states. I may also do some regional travel before the year is out.