topic Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR. in Credit Cards

Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Credit_Flavours — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 01:05:11 GMT

Please note that I have no problems with a financial review, I am actually in the middle of the mortgage process in which I actually elected to link all my bank accounts to the 3 different lenders that pre-approved us, which was just optional. I, however, have a problem with people who want all the benefits of being a credit card company and none of the risks that go with that. They can keep their cards while I increase my patronage of companies that are more reasonable and realistic.

You can read the entire story below if interested. The summary is that they wanted a 4506t and I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction especially since half those cards were already on the chopping board. Their grouse was with a balance I carried for the 12 months term after a BT but my thinking is that I have every right to carry the balance since I paid the 3% fees upfront and I was never late on any payment.

FULL GIST.

I had 3 personal and 3 business Amex cards.

All personal cards were 2years old and the biz cards averaged 1year 2months. Never carried a balance on the personal cards, always reported 0 to the CRAs but had a $4k BT on the BPP which just ran its term this month and planned to pay it off this month anyway. I also had a balance of $1.9k on my HH business card which was leftover from a large charge I had made from settling some legal fees for the business but not PIFed due to the long COVID inactivity with the business. I ensured that at least 2-3x the minimum due was paid. I also recently paid off a business loan of $5k from them as well.

The drama started when I poked the bear by calling to confirm if they would approve a charge for an invoice for $9.2k which will overshoot my $12k limit on the BPP. (NB: They send emails every other week informing me that that product encourages going over your limit). After transferring me to 3 different reps, the call drops and I receive a call back from a guy who informs me that I am now under financial review. I was truly angry and it showed in my voice, obviously. Why would asking you if a charge would go through, result in FR?

I had already decided to cut the gold, everyday preferred and Amazon business this month anyway, for various reasons such as fees etc. So with this turn of events, after the call, it was a very easy decision.

I went over and paid off the roughly $7k balance through my personal BOA where it gets cleared quickly. 3 hours later, they had pulled the cash from my account. I waited till the next day to see both accounts post a $0 balance and then hold on to see what the trailing interset will be on the expired BT and I paid that off as well. (Thankfully, my statement cut around that period).

I then proceeded to use my rewards cash on the BCP for gift cards and transfer the MR points to Marriot (not the best use I know).

All these happened over a 5 days period, from Thursday to Monday. First thing Tuesday morning, I called in to cancel all the cards. The initial guy was a bit stunned because I had no balance on all the cards. After a little chitchat which I wasn't really paying attention to, he noted that I was under FR and he would like to transfer to the guy that initiated it.

The point guy then tried to blackmail me by using the rewards I had accumulated which will be lost if I cancelled now instead of just going through with the FR and how that the unpaid balance will affect my credit and also the fact that I might have to create a plan to settle that balance which might not help if I choose to get an Amex in future. (Guess he was in the bathroom, working remotely when the call came through and wasn't looking at my account while he spoke with me. LOL!). That made me angrier and I placed on record how much I detested his condescension and smugness.

I enjoyed setting him right on the fact that every single dime and even the trailing interest had been paid. Loved the gibberish that came afterwards when he checked and acknowledged the zero balances on all 6 cards.

At that point, he went ahead and cancelled the cards and asked that I expect letters in the mail confirming the "cancellation at your request". While Amex won't miss my business, I definitely won't miss their services either. All I really ever use their personal cards for was groceries. LOL! ( All travel spend went towards getting UR points).

It's my personal opinion that while the creditor must do what suits their bottom line, I must also protect and do what's in my best interest and not bend over backwards for any creditor if doing so bestows no extra benefit.

Also, I ended up paying cash for the invoice. All I lost was the reward I would have gotten from putting it on the BPP and maybe the float for a few weeks.

Extra DP:

Total personal CL before: $150,000

Total personal CL after : $134,000

UTI: 0% ($2-two dollars)

Other stats in my signature is up to date.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

tcbofade — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 01:13:59 GMT

They aren't a good fit for everyone.

Some folks here really love American Express, some really hate them.

I'm in the Meh crowd. I've got one, DW has two, but we're not terribly impressed either. If they closed them tomorrow, we wouldn't miss them.

Go find a greener pasture!

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 01:15:44 GMT

Gotta do what ya gotta do

I hear Chase is laxing up on business apps again : )

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

blindambition — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 01:43:59 GMT

@tcbofade wrote:
They aren't a good fit for everyone.

Some folks here really love American Express, some really hate them.

I'm in the Meh crowd. I've got one, DW has two, but we're not terribly impressed either. If they closed them tomorrow, we wouldn't miss them.

Go find a greener pasture!

I'd miss Chase more. I had Amex in late 80's and 90's. Then didn't have for years, by choice.

I have a BCP, but in the meh crowd. Wouldn't lose sleep. The CS isn't what it was 25 years ago.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

UpperNwGuy — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 01:56:46 GMT

Amex is a very overrated credit card issuer. I closed my Amex cards 3-4 years ago, and I don't miss them. What especially annoys me is how they play games with so many aspects of their cards. I was never asked to undergo a financial review, but I've read the stories, and it makes me happy to be rid of Amex.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Dmessina666 — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 02:09:20 GMT

Good for you. This post made my day.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Credit_Flavours — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 02:14:25 GMT

I really just have a problem with having to tiptoe around so as not to get the almighty Amex upset. You always have to read between the lines with almost every communication you get from them. If you send me an offer, why should you penalize me for exploring said offer? Crazy!

Heard of folks who got shot down after they took them up on their offer to help during these difficult times for everybody. I guess I just had enough of the games. Rather focus my energy on companies that are more straight forward.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Kforce — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 02:30:33 GMT

@UpperNwGuy wrote:
Amex is a very overrated credit card issuer. I closed my Amex cards 3-4 years ago, and I don't miss them. What especially annoys me is how they play games with so many aspects of their cards. I was never asked to undergo a financial review, but I've read the stories, and it makes me happy to be rid of Amex.

+ 100

Will not find them in my signature.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

K-in-Boston — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 02:43:33 GMT

I've not had any issues with Amex at all in 18+ years. The FR would have been done with a few clicks of the mouse. Their cards, their rules. It does seem like there were several factors leading up to the FR; utilizing a balance transfer offer alone would never cause that. It seems like a lot of cards opened in a very short period of time.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

rostrow416 — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 03:14:49 GMT

It just seems as if it's an excuse to full customers that have several lines of credit with them. OP having 6 cards total might be making them skittish. Which would beg the question, why approve 6 cards for a single person if it's going to be an issue?

I certainly wouldn't put all my eggs in their basket seeing how volatile they can be.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

sxa001 — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 04:33:05 GMT

The guy who initiated the FR seems like he was a jerk. If I was in your shoes and already had three cards on the chopping block from the lender and a very healthy amount of available credit with other lenders I might have done the same.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Loquat — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 04:49:33 GMT

Not every card will be a good fit for every person. You have to determine what you want, what you're willing to deal with to have it, and know when to cut ties when it's no longer a mutual relationship.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 05:07:08 GMT

@Loquat wrote:
Not every card will be a good fit for every person. You have to determine what you want, what you're willing to deal with to have it, and know when to cut ties when it's no longer a mutual relationship.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This! We see here people saying that they would never put up with an FR, and others happily doing so. It just depends on how much you are (or expect to) getting out of the relationship. Clearly the OP thought that the value add was very small/zero and so the effort (even if small) of going through the FR was too much for any potential benefit. The apparent rudeness of the FR specialist was icing on the cake, but OP was cancelling anyway before that.

As @Loquat says, quit when it's no longer beneficial to you (I would drop the mutual part, their side is their concern!) This might include things like impact on util of closing and any impact on future relationships, but once those have all been taken into account, if it's not working, drop them! Both you and the issuer will move on to greener things....

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

wasCB14 — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 07:42:32 GMT

It's all about picking your poison. Not that this list is remotely exhaustive, but...

Amex - FRs and quirky credits

Chase - 5/24, shutdowns, and the fading value of URs

Citi - bad CS and benefit nerfs

Barclays - balance chasing

BofA - CS wait times

NFCU - mediocre rewards

Cap1 - CLDs

Discover - nerfs and seemingly random POI requests

Synchrony - POI and shutdowns

Comenity - shutdowns

I guess there's the USAA Limitless card for the few who have it...but apart from that most issuers and cards will be hated (or ignored) by quite a few people here in the span of any given month!

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Credit_Flavours — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 08:20:39 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
I've not had any issues with Amex at all in 18+ years. The FR would have been done with a few clicks of the mouse. Their cards, their rules. It does seem like there were several factors leading up to the FR; utilizing a balance transfer offer alone would never cause that. It seems like a lot of cards opened in a very short period of time.

It's wonderful that you have them figured out, a big kudos to you but I really don't want to do that much work studying the tea leaves to be able to use services I am ultimately paying for even if there are no annual fees(4 of my cards had AFs by the way, which I was happy to pay while trying to figure out which ones were the best fit).

When having a product line, each one is designed uniquely to encourage and attract as much patronage as possible from each individual customer and the larger market, by differentiating their perceived benefits as extensively as you can. That is why all in one cards, that take care of all the spend patterns of all customers are very rare. So when you have such a line and folks get different products to meet different spend needs, why should that be a problem? Why would they configure their algorithms to approve 3 cards in 2 or 3 days and then allow a max of 5 revolvers and any number of charge cards, if it was a problem?

I still have pre-approvals for their plat and green cards on my account as at the time I cancelled the relationship(every rep I speak or chat with will always take time to remind me), so if my opening 4 new cards 7 months ago with other lenders was a problem, why are they still pushing more of their own cards on me? Why do they keep giving me upgrade offers with juicy MR points/cash bonus?

At any rate, if having 6 cards is a problem, then create and communicate clear rules like every other service provider. I doubt Toyota or GM would have a problem with me having every car in their line as long as my profile supports it.

If anything maybe having a $2-$5 UTI on a $150k limit for an extended period might be a problem to them but that's the exact mental gymnastics I am truly fed up with. I shouldn't have to keep making them look like they know what is best for both them and me and I am just a naive customer who must trust that Amex knows best.

Not a healthy relationship to be in for me, won't you agree? Hence the rampant resort to the phenomenon called divorce. LOL! if it's not working it's not working and neither party needs to be the bad guy.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

NRB525 — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 10:25:22 GMT

Sorry to hear about the closures. Sounds like you are moving forward and simplified your CC list.

As to the possible reasons for the FR, it seems your utilization was concentrated on these two cards? So while the rest of your portfolio is small reported utilization, these cards were carrying balances for several months? In that scenario also, it would seem new charge - payment cycles were probably lower amounts? And from the AMEX perspective, they didn't have the knowledge you intended to pay off ~$5k on this card, to bring it back closer to PIF mode.

Of these two relatively large items, were there other similar large charges that got paid to zero, in the past on this card?

Where my comments are headed, AMEX likes cardholders to charge and pay, charge and pay, especially when going over limit. I've got 7+ years on my AMEX relationship, which is mostly charge and pay. I have carried some balances when there is a promotional APR, and have used Plan It for some large items, but that's all been well within the CL, and with large payments, not 2x-3x of minimum.

All these cards were also approved pre-pandemic. Banks seem to be watching out for risk factors, and adding $9k to existing carried balance is increasing default risk. I know you aren't going to default, but that rusk measure is something AMEX computers do seven times per second.

If I've guessed right, the limited pay down, having a balance that it's not clear to the algorithm that you would have it to zero, and not much experience with this large of a charge likely triggered the computer to want to know more.

It sounds like you've made your choice and moved on, and that's fine. For my own banking, I do like to read the tea leaves, to try to guess why things may be happening the way they are

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Credit_Flavours — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 12:25:44 GMT

@NRB525 wrote:
Sorry to hear about the closures. Sounds like you are moving forward and simplified your CC list.

As to the possible reasons for the FR, it seems your utilization was concentrated on these two cards? So while the rest of your portfolio is small reported utilization, these cards were carrying balances for several months? In that scenario also, it would seem new charge - payment cycles were probably lower amounts? And from the AMEX perspective, they didn't have the knowledge you intended to pay off ~$5k on this card, to bring it back closer to PIF mode.

Of these two relatively large items, were there other similar large charges that got paid to zero, in the past on this card?

Where my comments are headed, AMEX likes cardholders to charge and pay, charge and pay, especially when going over limit. I've got 7+ years on my AMEX relationship, which is mostly charge and pay. I have carried some balances when there is a promotional APR, and have used Plan It for some large items, but that's all been well within the CL, and with large payments, not 2x-3x of minimum.

All these cards were also approved pre-pandemic. Banks seem to be watching out for risk factors, and adding $9k to existing carried balance is increasing default risk. I know you aren't going to default, but that rusk measure is something AMEX computers do seven times per second.

If I've guessed right, the limited pay down, having a balance that it's not clear to the algorithm that you would have it to zero, and not much experience with this large of a charge likely triggered the computer to want to know more.

It sounds like you've made your choice and moved on, and that's fine. For my own banking, I do like to read the tea leaves, to try to guess why things may be happening the way they are

The highlighted comment is my redline. if Amex likes certain behaviour, they should code it into their product design and stop offering products that naturally lead to opposing behaviours. Amex can't take my 3%(or even 0%)entering into a contract to allow me to hold that balance for a certain period of time then get their pants in a bunch when I do exactly that.

Even if all I do is the very minimum, do I have a history of missed payments or defaults in my credit history? No. Never missed a single payment, ever. Have I had larger balances with other lenders for an extended period that was later paid to zero all at once? Yes, with BOA($12k) and Discover($8k). And my credit report shows that fact. So even if the computers flag my account, why are analysts being paid if not to look at the profile and make reasoned deductions but no they would rather take the easy route which is to call for 4506t which contains several items that have to do with other members of my family (I file jointly)and even associates(business partners and newly connected investors) that is not just worth parading over credit I don't even need.

If the balance coming to term was a deal breaker on allowing the $9k charge, which was why I called ahead in the first place, then all they should have done is say "NO, can't do" and it will be fine or ask if I am willing to pay down the existing balance first which I would have done happily. But their model is "all reward - no risk" lending. Well, I am not that kind of a gal. (I'm a guy by the way).

And FYI the ink is not even dry on our divorce and I am already getting targeted offers from them via email, talk about not liking..... The thing just doesn't add up.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

gdale6 — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 13:22:47 GMT

I learned Amex was a joke in the 80s.....

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Loquat — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:51:02 GMT

I'm no Amex cheerleader as they've done some things to ruffle my feathers as well. But I can't lie, they have the best transfer partners out there and have really stepped up when I needed them to on a few returns and chargebacks when merchants didn't do the right thing.

I think all of these lenders have their flaws...we as consumers have to do our part to find the right balance between tolerance of their quirks and their ability to provide us with worthwhile benefits and perks.

Re: Cancelled all Amex cards after they initiated FR.

Kforce — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 16:41:42 GMT

@gdale6 wrote:
I learned Amex was a joke in the 80s.....

I think it was the 70's for me,,,,,