topic Re: 2 Years with AMEX in Credit Cards

2 Years with AMEX

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 17:48:29 GMT

Since first visiting this site, AMEX has always been touted as a relationship based lender. Treat them well, and they'll reciprocate. I just hit 2 years with my Delta Gold card, which is significant due to what's been said here.

As a rebuilder, the common knowledge being passed around is if AMEX approves you with a $500 or $1000 limit, you just squeaked in and will be effectively leashed. When I first started coming here, that timeline was 1 year and has since stretched to 2 years for them to loosen or remove the leash. Things like 61 day CLIs don't apply to us.

I initially was approved, with no pre-approval, for the Delta Gold at $1000 with a 641 EX on 10/17/18. As such, I tempered my expectations, but made my CLI requests like clockwork, 61 days then every 91 days after each denial, never being approved. It became frustrating and I wanted to stop using the card, but was always reminded it would take 1 or 2 years. I continued to spend between $3-5k a month on it while PIF.

In January of 2020 I applied without any pre-approvals and was approved for a Gold and a Delta Platinum for $1400. Being that this was more than the $1000 "starting limit" I assumed I would start to see some growth. I spend between $4-5k a month across all of my cards with a high of $7k on a single card one month in addition to normal spend on the other two. Worked out to be around $10k, PIF. Now, these approvals are the only time I saw a relationship type aspect. I jumped the gun before they had updated my score after a very large payoff, so both approvals were with a 625 EX.

Up until this point, I still have not seen a CLI. Today, I applied for the Schwab Platinum and Bonvoy as that would basically round out all the cards I would need from them. Income is $70k individual with $116k household. I have about $19k in my Schwab brokerage accounts that I opened a few months ago, $12k in liquid assets across my banks and credit unions, and I didn't include my other investments or retirement accounts. DTI is stupid low because my house is paid off with my $700 car payment basically being my only debt. I was denied for both due to FICO score. Recon was a joke because they basically didn't do one. There was absolutely no interest in hearing what I had to say.

I also applied for a 3x CLI increase today, and was denied for that. Since my AF is coming due on my Delta Gold, I called in to see if there was a retention offer that could offset the AF or possibly an AF waiver. There was none. I now have 30 days to decide if I want to close it, or downgrade it to Blue.

Based on my experience, the whole 1-2 years of "getting to know you" is a bunch of hogwash. Over the last 2 years, my scores have gone up ~150 points, I've removed almost all of my collections, and my chargeoffs have been paid with some being removed. I've spent a significant portion of me and my wife's pay on them every year, basically almost all of it, in an attempt to grow limits large enough to actually book two roundtrip flights and to get approved for the cards we need. At this point, minus the rebuilder and bucketed cards I'm closing this year, they are pretty much my lowest limit cards.

While I knew they liked cleaner and higher score profiles, my takeaway is they are NOT a relationship based bank if you either, don't have very good credit, or don't have very high income and spend.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 17:56:07 GMT

Well, technically, you profile does seem to fit the "bust out" criteria that I recently read a couple days ago. So that could be playing into your experiences with Amex. Although I can't really say as I'm no expert on tis matter, or any for that matter.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Namaste7 — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:19:59 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Well, technically, you profile does seem to fit the "bust out" criteria that I recently read a couple days ago. So that could be playing into your experiences with Amex. Although I can't really say as I'm no expert on tis matter, or any for that matter.

👆

AMEX can be a tough cookie to crack if you came in dirty and/or your FICOs are not above 720+. AMEX's algorithms may not like OP's total number of accounts and/or the number of accounts with CLs below $1K.

OP, if AMEX is in your wallet, it's the long-term play that you should value. Until you are in their good graces, consider cooling off on new AMEX apps and CLI requests and allow your entire portofolio to age and grow. If the non-AMEX accounts do not grow as your profile ages, it's a good idea to evaluate who to keep vs. close.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

wasCB14 — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:21:38 GMT

Credit standards aren't constant. Your scores have risen over the last two years, but so has the unemployment rate. If you lose your current job you may have a harder time getting a new one compared to two years ago.

Around mid-2019 IIRC Discover said in a conference call with investors that they were comfortable extending credit somewhat aggressively because unemployment was so low. I suspect that attitude has changed.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Kforce — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:38:03 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

My takeaway is they are NOT a relationship based bank if you either, don't have very good credit, or don't have very high income and spend.

In my opinion NO financial institution is "relationship based".

They function on profit and numbers, you are and always will only be a number.

Get cards that benefit you and don't try and build a relationship.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Curious_George2 — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 19:01:50 GMT

Gut punch. I'm so sorry. We spend time learning the rules, invest time and money in playing by them, and get our hopes up that good results will follow. When they don't, it hurts. We've all felt that pain from time to time. It sucks. I'm sorry you are feeling it now.

I know it's hard, but please try not to take any actions that will have long-term effects while the sting of this is still fresh. You are super smart, and you will figure out the best path forward, but it's important to do that when your thinking isn't heavily influenced by emotion as it might be right now.

Your finances and FICO are both in great places. Awesome cards will follow. Hang in there.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

wasCB14 — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 19:05:27 GMT

@Kforce wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

My takeaway is they are NOT a relationship based bank if you either, don't have very good credit, or don't have very high income and spend.
In my opinion NO financial institution is "relationship based".
They function on profit and numbers, you are and always will only be a number.
Get cards that benefit you and don't try and build a relationship.

See $40 late payment fees and ~20% APRs...

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

notmyrealname23 — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:43:14 GMT

I'm in somewhat of a similar place: coming into AMEX during a rebuild, my AMEX revolvers are not getting 60 day 3x CLIs (and one of them is a $1k CL).

I don't really care that much because it's a marathon, not a sprint and I'm sporting AMEX cards I thought I would never see again + pushing past 60k of available credit 21 or so months out of Chapter 13, with actual long term keeper cards in the mix, not just starter/bridge cards from C1 or store cards from Synchrony. I appreciate the DPs OP is giving me since I was wondering "hey, where are all those 60 day AMEX 3x CLIs I keep hearing about"?

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:05:17 GMT

@Curious_George2 wrote:
Gut punch. I'm so sorry. We spend time learning the rules, invest time and money in playing by them, and get our hopes up that good results will follow. When they don't, it hurts. We've all felt that pain from time to time. It sucks. I'm sorry you are feeling it now.

I know it's hard, but please try not to take any actions that will have long-term effects while the sting of this is still fresh. You are super smart, and you will figure out the best path forward, but it's important to do that when your thinking isn't heavily influenced by emotion as it might be right now.

Your finances and FICO are both in great places. Awesome cards will follow. Hang in there.

Plan hasn't changed. I'm closing all cards that are bucketed or under $1000 limits, except my Home Depot because it helps me track spending with work. The only other cards that I may apply for in the future are Best Buy, which I'm waiting on to ensure no sub-1000 limit, and the Flagship in March. After that, just letting everything age until I qualify for US Bank and Chase. I have no desire to open any other cards.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:11:57 GMT

@Namaste7 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Well, technically, you profile does seem to fit the "bust out" criteria that I recently read a couple days ago. So that could be playing into your experiences with Amex. Although I can't really say as I'm no expert on tis matter, or any for that matter.
👆

AMEX can be a tough cookie to crack if you came in dirty and/or your FICOs are not above 720+. AMEX's algorithms may not like OP's total number of accounts and/or the number of accounts with CLs below $1K.

OP, if AMEX is in your wallet, it's the long-term play that you should value. Until you are in their good graces, consider cooling off on new AMEX apps and CLI requests and allow your entire portofolio to age and grow. If the non-AMEX accounts do not grow as your profile ages, it's a good idea to evaluate who to keep vs. close.

Your theory about the algorithms is shaky at best. @Anonymous had a very similar profile to mine back in 2018. My Delta Gold approval pushed him to app for his. Since then, we've gone different directions. I'm a heavy credit seeker, he's not. He was approved for more amex, but they're all "starter" limits and he has yet to get a CLI. His 2 year anniversary is in a couple of months, so we shall see once we get more datapoints.

Also, my other cards have almost all grown, which is why my amex cards went from being my highest limits to lowest. Besides my nordstrom, amazon and walmart card, they're the only ones to never give me an increase.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

K-in-Boston — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:59:23 GMT

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unless the old Amex chargeoff is paid off I don't see them opening any gates for many more years.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:14:44 GMT

@Kforce wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

My takeaway is they are NOT a relationship based bank if you either, don't have very good credit, or don't have very high income and spend.
In my opinion NO financial institution is "relationship based".
They function on profit and numbers, you are and always will only be a number.
Get cards that benefit you and don't try and build a relationship.

Eh, I think there are still a few, mostly credit unions, but for the most part you're right. I learned that over the 2 years I've been on here.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:16:45 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unless the old chargeoff is paid off I don't see them opening any gates for many more years.

Yep that's what I was thinking too.

Most issuers seem to look at unpaid charge offs and collections and think "well if they're doing it to them, they'll do it to us too." I mean even NFCU is strict about them.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

AverageJoesCredit — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 20:19:08 GMT

@Kforce wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

My takeaway is they are NOT a relationship based bank if you either, don't have very good credit, or don't have very high income and spend.
In my opinion NO financial institution is "relationship based".
They function on profit and numbers, you are and always will only be a number.
Get cards that benefit you and don't try and build a relationship.

This. I agree with Brians view without the good income/spend lenders will take less chance on a person. In these tuff times even with a good credit score , banks will not help unless they see you dont actually need it Credit can be frustrating but at end of day, they decide our fates based off their criteria. One thing ive learned here, doesnt pay to try and get a lender to loosen up. If they dont meet ones expectations, move on to the next. At least we have some choices .

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

NRB525 — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:08:30 GMT

Thanks for sharing your story. Regardless what we think about the data points, having the perspective of what people are actually experiencing can help readers to temper their enthusiasm. There can seem to be tendencies with some of these aspects of credit, but few hard and fast rules.

Sorry to hear about the limits and frustration you've had with AMEX.

On the bright side, congrats on the approvals for the cards you requested. Hopefully you see continued gradual improvements in your overall portfolio. Using the points to actually travel feels good once you start getting out there

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

KJinNC — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:26:13 GMT

Just to add another anecdotal experience that has differences and similarities to the OP's experience. I will start off with just the DPs, then add my thoughts.

I could write a much longer version of this, but basically, I had bad credit or no credit for years until last spring, when I started rebuilding from nothing. My first account in 10+ years was a $300 Citi secured card, opened last April.

I also could write the long story (it's a weird one) of getting my Amex Gold Card, which I was surprised to receive last July. But not really relevant to this thread, I don't think.

So anyway, last August, I had a one-month history with my Amex Gold Card (positive, as far as it went), and on exactly my one-month anniversary, I saw that I was preapproved for several cobrand cards. I applied for Delta Gold and was approved with a $1,000 limit. The next day, I also got a Hilton Aspire with a $3,100 limit. I think those are the respective minimum limits for those cards, based on the size of the annual fee. So, I was barely in, but I was in.

Flash forward to this spring. Bear in mind, my profile has looked weird the whole time. It still looks weird. But by this spring, I had no new accounts or inquiries on Experian since last September. I had opened an Apple Card in December, but that only shows on TU, so I don't think Amex noticed. Early this year, the week that Chase raised the CSR annual fee, I got a Platinum Card. I had been waiting for a CSR, but decided the Platinum was now a better deal for me, since I am in the CAP program, so it costs me $400/year net. Once I made that decision, I decided to have a spree. I got a Citi American Airlines card (the $100/year one), which had an $11,000 CL, and then went to Costco and joined, and signed up for the Citi Costco Visa, and was approved in the store with a $9,500 CL. I then applied for an Amex Delta Platinum, which was approved with a $20,000 CL, and an Amex Blue Cash Everyday, which was approved with a $10,000 CL. I was pretty surprised by the approvals and the CLs, but was also aware I was really pushing my luck, and was at risk of an AA. So, I hunkered down at that point for a while.

I then made my situation worse with Amex's computers by having a payment returned. What happened there is, I'd just opened my Navy Federal account, and tried to use it to pay my Amex. I was surprised to see it denied, because I hadn't realized that you can't use a savings account for a linked payment. There was money in the NFCU account to pay the bill, it just doesn't use ACH. I immediately paid it with my other account, the same evening. But in Amex's computer, I got dinged for a returned payment the same as if a check bounced.

Having said all that ... I am now not quite 14 months in with Amex, and, I have never received a CLI from Amex, either. I've tried regularly, starting around Thanksgiving last year. The last time I applied for one, two weeks ago, I got a demand for tax transcripts. I have strong opinions about data privacy, and I ignored the request. So I guess I won't be getting a CLI from Amex any time soon, unless/until they forget about that request.

I'm ok with that ... I have quite a bit of CL across my Amex cards, thanks to my approvals this spring. Lack of getting a CLI will probably just cause me to move CL from the cards I use the least, and close them. I've already closed one (the Delta Gold, duplicative with the Delta Platinum) and I will probably downgrade the Hilton card in a month or two. I want to give some breathing room after closing Delta Gold before I do that.

Overall, I can't complain ... I mean, I have over $33k in aggregate Amex CLs, plus Platinum and Gold. But inability to get a CLI is a downer, and I find the tax transcript demand to be strange ... what would it tell them that they don't already know at this point, after a year of seeing use patterns and payment patterns? I think they've weaponized it as a way of forcing you to stop requesting stuff, moreso than for actual useful data.

I really like Amex, and based on card approvals and CLs, I guess they kind of like me, at least did this spring, but just posting because I'm another example of somebody who can't buy a CLI from Amex.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:44:07 GMT

@NRB525 wrote:
Thanks for sharing your story. Regardless what we think about the data points, having the perspective of what people are actually experiencing can help readers to temper their enthusiasm. There can seem to be tendencies with some of these aspects of credit, but few hard and fast rules.

Sorry to hear about the limits and frustration you've had with AMEX.
On the bright side, congrats on the approvals for the cards you requested. Hopefully you see continued gradual improvements in your overall portfolio. Using the points to actually travel feels good once you start getting out there

Regardless of my limits, they're still valuable as of now. It's just an annoyance trying to use the ridiculous limits that I've shown are way too small for me. it's become so much of a pain that I've simply started using other cards with high enough limits.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 00:34:18 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@NRB525 wrote:
Thanks for sharing your story. Regardless what we think about the data points, having the perspective of what people are actually experiencing can help readers to temper their enthusiasm. There can seem to be tendencies with some of these aspects of credit, but few hard and fast rules.

Sorry to hear about the limits and frustration you've had with AMEX.
On the bright side, congrats on the approvals for the cards you requested. Hopefully you see continued gradual improvements in your overall portfolio. Using the points to actually travel feels good once you start getting out there
Regardless of my limits, they're still valuable as of now. It's just an annoyance trying to use the ridiculous limits that I've shown are way too small for me. it's become so much of a pain that I've simply started using other cards with high enough limits.

I'm not really surprised that they haven't raised your limits to be honest. Your on the razor's edge in regards to your spending in relation to your income. Spending 3 to 5k a month on amex cards when you make 70k a year with your partner making 46k a year probably causes the algorithms to give your profile a bunch of red flags along with your prior credit history. You have very little to nothing left if your spending around 5k a month on those incomes at the end of the day. I know you have your doubts about the algorithm and aren't happy about the situation but just going off the info you provided you basically spend all of your income with all of your money going right out the door as soon as you get it. Well at least you do when you closer to 5k than 3k in spend in each month.

Yes you have 19k in a schwab brokerage and 12k in bank accounts for a total of 31k which is okay but if your spending 5k a month on credit cards and if you and your partner lose your job your going to be flat broke in 6 months. Considering the current state of affairs in the world I can see why Amex is being conservative here especially considering you are rebuilding your credit history. I'm not trying to be mean saying that and you are doing better than most since you do have 6 month give or take runway (don't know how many bills you have that you can't or don't pay with credit cards) so you defintitely do have positives it's just that Amex might not be willing to take any chances.

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

wasCB14 — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 00:47:17 GMT

When did you take out the car loan? 75 months is a reasonably long term for a car loan and might not have helped.

I think it's pretty rare for Amex to recon a denial if the original application was complete (and you didn't fail to mention some other source of income). They stick by the computer's decision.

I'm not sure about any particular "leash timeline". $500 and $1000 SLs are "squeak in" ones (assuming no income constraint), but it may really depend on how long it takes for a profile to improve.

641+~150=~791...but a high score may not be enough with at least one collection and at least one chargeoff still remaining. I didn't realize a score could be that high with those baddies. I think your Cap1 cards are fairly old, though?

They've not given a CLI to the $1k, but you have sort of gotten a CLI with the $1400 and the charge card.

*And I'd cool it with the apps and CLI requests if you're uneasy about possibly going through an FR (or just don't want to share that info with Amex).

Re: 2 Years with AMEX

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 01:14:28 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@NRB525 wrote:
Thanks for sharing your story. Regardless what we think about the data points, having the perspective of what people are actually experiencing can help readers to temper their enthusiasm. There can seem to be tendencies with some of these aspects of credit, but few hard and fast rules.

Sorry to hear about the limits and frustration you've had with AMEX.
On the bright side, congrats on the approvals for the cards you requested. Hopefully you see continued gradual improvements in your overall portfolio. Using the points to actually travel feels good once you start getting out there
Regardless of my limits, they're still valuable as of now. It's just an annoyance trying to use the ridiculous limits that I've shown are way too small for me. it's become so much of a pain that I've simply started using other cards with high enough limits.
I'm not really surprised that they haven't raised your limits to be honest. Your on the razor's edge in regards to your spending in relation to your income. Spending 3 to 5k a month on amex cards when you make 70k a year with your partner making 46k a year probably causes the algorithms to give your profile a bunch of red flags along with your prior credit history. You have very little to nothing left if your spending around 5k a month on those incomes at the end of the day. I know you have your doubts about the algorithm and aren't happy about the situation but just going off the info you provided you basically spend all of your income with all of your money going right out the door as soon as you get it. Well at least you do when you closer to 5k than 3k in spend in each month.

Yes you have 19k in a schwab brokerage and 12k in bank accounts for a total of 31k which is okay but if your spending 5k a month on credit cards and if you and your partner lose your job your going to be flat broke in 6 months. Considering the current state of affairs in the world I can see why Amex is being conservative here especially considering you are rebuilding your credit history. I'm not trying to be mean saying that and you are doing better than most since you do have 6 month give or take runway (don't know how many bills you have that you can't or don't pay with credit cards) so you defintitely do have positives it's just that Amex might not be willing to take any chances.

I stated I'm not reporting my other investment or retirement accounts. Me and my wife's salary is underreported in case they ever want to do a FR (we don't include bonuses). I didn't include her savings. And, we have about $600k in lien-free equity with our house.